[AstroCat]

Hi,

After much deliberating and researching I was all set to buy a Sanyo PLV-60 front projector. I was getting all excited about putting my home theater together and then I came across all the 5C - DVI/HDCP talk.

Man, this has really halted me in my tracks. I was just a couple days away from my purchase but now I don’t know. I do understand that 5C will be used for RECORDING while DVI/HDCP will be used for DISPLAYING. My main concern is displaying but if all HDTV is reduced to 480p this would be a bummer. Now, my uses for the HT will be 75% DVD movies, 20 % video games and 5% HDTV. You might wonder what the big deal is. Well, I would for one like to have the option of HDTV for the future and two, what about something like HD DVD or HD VHS ?

I am really looking for advice and/or suggestions for this situation. I would love to have a home theater and have been preparing for it for a long time but I don’t want to waste money either.


Thank you in advance for any help or insights.


Frustrated wanna-be HT owner,

Jordan Trais

 

[andyg]

I remember in 1996/97 DVD vs DIVX. Although the fight could have gone either way, I decived to build my HT around DVD. I figured I would enjoy the setup and do my part to inform the public of the pros/cons.. Oh wait cons of DIVX. I say, build what you want and enjoy it now. Technology will always have a new item for us to purchase. If you wait, you will never get to enjoy your HT. Remember DTS vs DD. EX, HD-DVD to be available by 2002 and replace 480 DVD's..... Don't worry. Build something that will allow some upgrade path, but don't loose sleep over it. Hell, I upconvert a composite LD signal to 1024x768 for my CRT and it looks very good....


----Andy Garabedian

 

[belmore]

I agree. I wouldn't wait either. I already have an existing HT and my projector died. I was faced with this same situation. The reality is that all this copy protection stuff is a long way off.


Sure, we may see a product or two that implements it over the next year, but choices of sets will be very limited. JVC demoed a prototype HDCP enabled D-ILA projector at one of the shows a while ago, but I don't know of any projector even announced (much less available) that provides these inputs. These select products will be first generation, likely cost a premium, lack many features that will be included in later generation sets and be buggy. It's not even clear at this point if you should be buying a firewire or DVI enabled set or whether both or either of these technologies will survive.


Noone even knows if anyone is going to throw the switch to enable the "image constraint" flag on any HD programming. It may just be a fail-safe if analog recording of HDTV becomes commonplace in the future.


Even if they do, how bad does an HD signal downrezed by 540p and then scaled back to 1080i look? Does it look bad enough that its worth holding out on your purchase for months, perhaps years. I would imagine it will still look pretty damn good.


My biggest concern about all this pertains to HD-DVD or D-VHS. Will these products even provide analog outputs? Again, will they use DVI or firewire? I believe that HD-DVD especially is a long way off. Hollywood will want to milk DVD as long as possible before introducing a new format. HD-DVD will give them yet another opportunity to sell us the same film again in a different medium. On the other hand, if what Hollywood wants really is pay-per-play as many are speculating, HD-DVD may never see the light of day, anyway.


I don't want to downplay how awful I think these copy protection schemes are. Read some of my other posts on this subject. I HATE them! It all comes down to how long are you willing to wait. I'm an obsessive complusive so this answer is easy for me. It may be more difficult for you. If you are willing to wait, I believe that your wait is going to be at least 6 months (probably a lot more) before you can pick up a projector that will meet your needs.

 

[metamatt]

There is a lot of confusion on this matter. For a balanced and knowledgeable discussion of it with an expert, cf. the interview HDTV Magazine had with David Broberg. http://www.ilovehdtv.com/

 

[belmore]

You've crossed posted this message to 3 threads that I've seen. HDTV magazine is a subscription service and I don't believe the interview that you mention is available for non-subscribers. This is looking like spam to me.


I, for one, would appreciate you either summarizing the jist of the interview or stop posting the same link to every thread that relates to this topic.


[This message has been edited by belmore (edited 08-01-2001).]

 

[rlsmith]

I sympathize with your problem; I've been having similar problems for years.


In 1983, I built my first real home theatre, with the Kloss 10ft CRT projection system as the core, together with laserdisc. I had misgivings at the time, thinking that hidef was just about to happen, and that my investment would be foolish. As we now know, hidef wasn't going to happen for 15 years, and my investment was fine.


I think you have to go for it. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't plan as best you can. But there is always uncertainty.


My gut feeling is that you will get your moneysworth. Exactly how I don't know. My suspicion is that our current equipment will get nearly its lifespan of usage before anything happens that is too drastic. At worst case, it will take years before HDCP plans can move forward.


I can see many scenarios unfolding, so many that it is difficult to plan. The one thing that is clear is that there is equipment today that you can use for the purposes you have outlined.


Go for it!

 

[BTDT]

I got an HDTV STB a couple of years back, and have been very impressed by what I have seen so far. The only thing is that I have been watching it on an Elite 1009W, a NTSC widescreen with excellent quality. I almost made the move to an HDTV display this summer, but have been held off by the promise of the 2002 Elites. Now this latest discussion has me wondering whether I should hold off for another year or two.


The situation is that my current set has a great display, especially with DVDs. Yes, it would look even better on a high-quality HDTV, but the danger of having a set go obsolute in the next 2-3 years is very disconcerting, as I would basically be stuck with the obsolete technology for several years after that.


So, my current personal stance is to wait until the hardware catches up with the protection move in content. I don't have a gun to my head to purchase something now, and I would expect over the next year things will be a lot clearer (and cheaper!).


This whole copy protection thing seems necessary to true HDTV, as content producers are naturally concerned with having exteme high-quality versions of the product available for broadcast and/or copy.

 

[andyg]

I hate so sound like a broken record, but MPAA, record groups, artists have been complaining for decades that their material needs copy protection. There is little evidence that copy protection helps protect the content material(the internet is proof of that.) Every time a new format appears so does a new encryption key. Every time a new key appears, a hack appears. The cycle continues....


The only proven method to reduce(not eliminate because that will never happen) theft is to keep the cost to the consumer down. Only then are people more apt to purchase vs steal. I only wish the MPAA and the broadcasters could see the light on this issue. No wonder no one has jumped on the HDTV bandwagon but a small handful. Yes the picture quality is 1000 time better than analog. Yes the sound quality is better, but no one can leave the format in a static state for Joe Six Pack. All these last minute changes will scare the consumers away. DVD is a perfect example when the water is clouded. Flashback 1997/98 DiVX vs DVD. I spoke with my wallet buying into the DVD side. I spoke with my wallet again this week buying into a HDTV with an analog output. Where's my TIVO so I can record 1080i in 480i. Now that's copy protection....



---Andy Garabedian

 

[JustMike]

Quote:

Originally posted by BTDT: This whole copy protection thing seems necessary to true HDTV, as content producers are naturally concerned with having exteme high-quality versions of the product available for broadcast and/or copy.

See, the thing I find so amusing about all this, is that people seem perfectly happy to buy abolutely horrible quality pirate copies of media. Think about Episode 1. I saw the 2-disc VCD mastered from what looked like a Hi-8 camcorder pointed at a theater screen. I think it sold like hotcakes. So, if zillions of people will buy that kind of crap, would it really be so many more who bought bootleg copies made from an HDTV source, provided that you could get a good copy from a legit source?


------------------

Mike Kobb

(Formerly "ReplayMike", but no longer affiliated with the company; these opinions are mine alone.)

 

[Rachael Bellomy]

Amen Andy! The age of optical discs for films and CDs has driven costs down and down, whilst prices go up and up. Hell, the content providers created the need for Napster. A CD costs 13 cents to make, give or take a penny. I'm sure it costs more to ship to a distributor than to make. Kids, who in my opinion drive the music biz largely, can't well afford CDs that cost $16.99 to $18.99. By kids I mean the 12 to 25 set. They buy most of the CDs, or would like to.


The music industry has lost it's way. Years ago, vinnyl records were afordable for young buyers. They bought them in droves. CDs should be more affordable. I see CD pricing as capricious. Then to beat the band, the labels hardly share the proceeds with the recording artist. Keep an eye on Courtney Love's lawsuit against her lable, alledging unfair business practices. It could get intresting.


An analogy could be drawn here for the DVD and VHS market. My point is that all entertainment is grossly over-priced, which (amen Andy) creates whatever market there is for bootlegs, copying, ripping, ect. CDs are such a good example. If CDs sold for $5 to $10 there sure would way less motivation to copy them or settle for inferior MP3. DVDs surely cost less than made at real speed VHS tapes, how much less I don't know? Who out there knows?


I think all entertainment is over-priced. Then the whiney industry groans and whines that somebody, somewhere might have copied something and that grandiose profits aren't enough. Give me a break. Maybe the next generation of hi-def boxes can count the lifeforms in the room and charge you accordingly. Maybe there's a switch to turn that on too...?


------------------


Rachael,la gata del disco Grande, meow meow!

 

[Glimmie]

Quote:

Originally posted by JustMike: See, the thing I find so amusing about all this, is that people seem perfectly happy to buy abolutely horrible quality pirate copies of media. Think about Episode 1. I saw the 2-disc VCD mastered from what looked like a Hi-8 camcorder pointed at a theater screen. I think it sold like hotcakes. So, if zillions of people will buy that kind of crap, would it really be so many more who bought bootleg copies made from an HDTV source, provided that you could get a good copy from a legit source?

There are a somewhat large population of people who buy stuff like that just to say they have it and show it off. "Hi, I got a copy of the new "Planet of the Apes" and you can't get one".


Then there are a somewhat small group of people that will not accept anything that is not above board no matter how good the quality or low the cost.


In the middle where most of us are, we are happy to pay $15 for a good DVD movie which we will enjoy several viewings. We aren't impressed with a $5 poor quality copy. But at the same time we won't pay $59.95 for a DVD either no matter how good the movie was.


I agree fully that the best copy protection system is good old fashioned pricing.

 

[dbb]

Not to change the topic, but as a newbie I have a dumb question. Is the DVI/HDCP issue mostly relate to pay-per-view and premium movie channels or to all broadcasting, such as the networks? For example, I watch sports much more than HBO and am interested in the CBS College Football game of the week in HD.


Dan

 

[JoeFloyd]

Broadcast TV is a little different than cable or satellite. With broadcast TV the individual TV stations were given the radio spectrum by the government for the purpose of providing FREE HDTV. All the talk that was going on last year about data casting and a switch to COFDM resulted in a congressional hearing from which the result was that several members of Congress put the broadcasters on notice that they either get their butts in gear or risk losing about $50 Billion in free spectrum. In any event, the FCC controls what the broadcasters can do with the signal so unless the FCC approves changes to the broadcast signal there will not be any system like DTCP or HDCP on free to air signals.