[jephdood]

I REALLY don't want to start another SVS vs. Hsu war.. so please don't start anything nasty between the two camps.. but I'm wondering what you guys think between the two options. And take cost out of the equation along with personal bias.


The Hsu has the bigger single driver, but the dual SVS's would provide more cone area and room configuration options. The two separate woofers might increase SPL, but overall depth might be sacrificed. Agree?


Any thoughts on this based on the technical information out there for both?


Thanks.

 

[hometheaterguy]

2 subs from any company is better than one.

 

[jephdood]

So by that rationale two Bose Acoustimass bass modules are better than one PB Ultra?

 

[DMF]

To the guy selling them, certainly!


Btw, the Acoustimass "bass module" isn't a subwoofer.

 

[Artisn]

jephdood's point was that two LOUSY subs are not better than one GREAT sub - and he is absolutely correct.


There are many issues to consider actually, such as room size, environmental issues, accoustics, etc. Placing two subs is more work than one.


There is no absolute answere here. Maybe get two subs and return one if it is not needed.

 

[jephdood]

Right, and I guess I should explain the reason for my question.


I already have the Hsu VTF-3 II, and AM happy with it. But in this hobby there are always upgrades out there and sometimes there is a perception that the grass is maybe just a little greener on the other side of the fence.


Hsu claims the VTF-3 II is capable of dipping down to the sub-20 Hz range, and after owning that sub for awhile now, I believe that. What I'm not sure of, though are the distortion levels below 20 or how the SPLs keep up as the frequency lowers. The charts of the SVS on their site and on the "Secrets" review show the PB-10 running flat to about 22 Hz, which is impressive for a "10", and with 2 of them running in tandem.. well, they might blow me away.


So that's why I asked. If trading in the single Hsu for two of the SVS's would make me grin just a bit more that I already am during those 'splosions.


Or, maybe I might think about a second Hsu. One can never have too much bass, right?

 

[Gordon McGregor]

Quote:

Originally posted by jephdood Any thoughts on this based on the technical information out there for both? Thanks.

I auditioned both, and I would say that I prefer just ONE (not saying about two) PB10-ISD vs VTF-3 (not II, I haven't hear it) ...

Hsu claims ... and it is visible on the frequency response of PB10-ISD, that it can provide 18Hz at the level of -3dB with almost perfect flat FR response till 200Hz - take a look http://www.svsubwoofers.com/images/p...dfrfullres.JPG

In THX Ultra 2 modes (particularly, THX Music) a subwoofer works till 80 Hz, PB10-ISD is even better in that range ...

I have M&K 350 MkII sub with drivers from M&K 5000 (originally installed, I have no idea how could I be so lucky) ... then I know what means "a musical sub". In my opinion SVS subwoofers are more musical, then Hsu subwoofers, and the reason is in almost prefect TC sound drivers (made in USA) ...

I would not dare to call PB10-ISD "a loosy sub" ... here is an opinion, confirming mine http://www.***************.com/htsth.../page/0#655143

If take in mind the perfect review about PB Ultra and it's awesome measurements,
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...=&pagenumber=1 , we can compare the quality of PB10-ISD with it ... I auditioned both in Hollywood with my modified receiver 49TXi and those two (PB10-ISD and PB2-Ultra) are definitely perfect subwoofers, each in it's category.

 

[hometheaterguy]

Quote:

Originally posted by jephdood So by that rationale two Bose Acoustimass bass modules are better than one PB Ultra?

Hey noob you started the thread, do you want help from all of us?

 

[Ddavidson]

Jephdood for directly marketed products its sad but true that the only real way is for you to listen with your ears. Spec sheets and other peoples opinions will never 100% satisfy what direct back to back listening will do for you. Although there are return shipping costs involved, ordering a PB10 and comparing to the VTF would solve your desire to be absolutely certain of your choice. There is no absolutes unless the person whose ears and wallet listens closely and then chooses. Theory is a great discussion subject but actual listening and practical experience is king.


Ddavidson

 

[Gordon McGregor]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ddavidson Although there are return shipping costs involved, ordering a PB10 and comparing to the VTF would solve your desire to be absolutely certain of your choice. There is no absolutes unless the person whose ears and wallet listens closely and then chooses. Theory is a great discussion subject but actual listening and practical experience is king. Ddavidson

With the price of $400 and shipping cost $46 it is definitely an expensive experiment ... better go to your or someone's friend and audition the device.

Theory is a great supportive thing ... and for subwoofers, when we are talking about the major point - SPL at particular frequencies plus THD at this level and time alignment, it is easier to make a suggestion, then for other speakers or electronics, IMO.

Concerning listening tests ... we need to make them double blind to have the correct opinion, and it is not that easy to do for subwoofeers - at least one has to have the SPL level meter.

 

[Ddavidson]

Quote:

With the price of $400 and shipping cost $46 it is definitely an expensive experiment

Personally I think its cheap however I appriciate others situations are different. That's a personal decision that people obviously have to weigh up with direct market products. B&M dealer products have the same demo dramas if one shop does't have all the brands, models under the same acoustic conditions. I look at it as all being part of the decision making process in getting a better sounding product (100% choice satisfaction). I also look at it that any of my sound biases or motives in my testing and reviewing are not detrimental to either me or my checkbook. In fact appeasing my ears is my only priority.


People really need to look at it more as 30-45 days of cheap equipment rental.


I just think its very cheap insurance, especially when you look at the fact that its "only" the shipping cost your loosing.


That's a whole lot less money than getting a few months down the road when you realize you should have went for sub A not sub B (or visa versa)


My findings have always been that your "totally" wasting your time making judgment calls based on sound comparison's done in various rooms. Your playing guessing games because of the variable acoustics conditions. People's expectations, desires and taste in sound quality vary enormously, and that's been clear every-time my friends and I listen to another's system. They may love their system but its no given that you will think its good (until you really sit down and listen then give you opinion). Spec sheets, measurements and theory are guides that you throw out the window when your getting serious about buying sound equipment because you will forever be listening with you ears .... not your eyes.


I think the sales marketeers have really had a birthday with brainwashing people over the importance of numbers in audio. You got to love a sales gimmick when you see such a big "song and dance" like we measured a distortion level 0.002 in equip A vs 0.005 in equip B. I mean lets be real about where audio starts and where sales marketing takes over. To me if I can't hear the difference I am not going to be interested in placebo effects of big numbers on the spec sheet or measurement's. Mind you people do love the numbers just for creating a talking point. As an audio subject its probably more down to "whatever floats your boat" it is after all your money and you have to listen to it.


For me I am off to listen to some music not read my systems specs.



Ddavidson

 

[jephdood]

Quote:

Originally posted by hometheaterguy Hey noob you started the thread, do you want help from all of us?

Hey man, you provided that blanket statement. I was looking to get a little more clarification from you with my reply. And the smiley face was to set the tone of my intentions, so don't get all bunched up about it. I DO appreciate the helpful replies I've gotten so far. Thanks to those who have replied with their theories.


And please don't call me "noob". I have a username just like everyone else here.

 

[plasmamaniac]

Buy the PB12-Plus/2 and be done with it but you better buy seatbelts for your couch.

 

[Gordon McGregor]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ddavidson Personally I think its cheap however I appreciate others situations are different. That's a personal decision that people obviously have to weigh up with direct market products. B&M dealer products have the same demo dramas if one shop does't have all the brands, models under the same acoustic conditions.

I don't think that it is "cheap". Take a look at this review http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...r-10-2004.html and you will understand why. It is an entry level sub, but probably the best one for this price ...
Quote:

I look at it as all being part of the decision making process in getting a better sounding product (100% choice satisfaction). I also look at it that any of my sound biases or motives in my testing and reviewing are not detrimental to either me or my checkbook. In fact appeasing my ears is my only priority.

There is no such term as 100% satisfaction, may be with the food stuff. Everything else is compromised at different levels.
Quote:

People really need to look at it more as 30-45 days of cheap equipment rental. I just think its very cheap insurance, especially when you look at the fact that its "only" the shipping cost your loosing.

Don't play "the game of a rich dad", calling everything that is not pricey - "cheap", please ... there are a lot of people here who can afford stuff what they want. But there is an other point - what amount is a reasonable spend for what we want to get ...
Quote:

That's a whole lot less money than getting a few months down the road when you realize you should have went for sub A not sub B (or visa versa)

There is only one way to study driving a bicycle - to get some falls down ... we have to accept the possibility to make mistakes, in other case we will make more mistake, trying to overpay or over-perform whatever is necessary to do .... with only one purpose - to avoid the possible mistake. I am trying to use science to avoid them, but in reality I just need to pass through them.
Quote:

My findings have always been that your "totally" wasting your time making judgment calls based on sound comparison's done in various rooms. Your playing guessing games because of the variable acoustics conditions.

No, I am not. First of all everything had been calibrated, it means the reaction of the room had been compensated. Then I compared PB Ultra and PB10-ISD in exactly the same conditions, with matched levels, in the same room, etc.
Quote:

People's expectations, desires and taste in sound quality vary enormously, and that's been clear every-time my friends and I listen to another's system. They may love their system but its no given that you will think its good (until you really sit down and listen then give you opinion).

I completely agree with you here.
Quote:

Spec sheets, measurements and theory are guides that you throw out the window when your getting serious about buying sound equipment because you will forever be listening with you ears .... not your eyes.

Those are not for my eyes, but for my mind ... the point is that I understand how specs and measurements are relative to the sound quality ... here I mean not a subjective term, but common understanding, defined in the dictionaries.
Quote:

I think the sales marketeers have really had a birthday with brainwashing people over the importance of numbers in audio. You got to love a sales gimmick when you see such a big "song and dance" like we measured a distortion level 0.002 in equip A vs 0.005 in equip B. I mean lets be real about where audio starts and where sales marketing takes over.

I am not talking about such comparison, you are right here, an amp with 0.3% THD can sound better then another one with 0.01% THD ... but if we understand WHY, we can make a suggestion ... and I am doing my suggestions on the base of knowledge instead of comparing of straight differences in data ... no doubt they are still my subjective suggestions, not scientific facts, because we don't have such information yet, but still it is better then nothing ... IMO.
Quote:

To me if I can't hear the difference I am not going to be interested in placebo effects of big numbers on the spec sheet or measurement's.

To me this is wrong. If you can't hear the difference with any device in any situation, this is correct, but if you will get for your amp better, "more revealing" speakers tomorrow and start to hear the difference, I bet you would prefer to have an amp with lower level of distortions today - just as you do with more expensive components. But "expensive" - don't guarantee the necessary "reserve", and understanding of processes, relative to the sound quality, can give you such reserve for future upgrades. We have a lot of discussions about the subjectivism in audio, here, for example:
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampin...subjectv.htm#1
Quote:

Mind you people do love the numbers just for creating a talking point. As an audio subject its probably more down to "whatever floats your boat" it is after all your money and you have to listen to it. For me I am off to listen to some music not read my systems specs.

It's up to you. I would prefer to know the concepts of designing of the best audio components and use that information in creating of my opinions ... the personal listening experience is the most important point, but we don't need to share it, because we all are different , as you said. In this case such companies as Bose are "on the right way", creating sound systems with non-linear FR and adjusting them for "more pleasurable perception", is it correct?

 

[hometheaterguy]

"And please don't call me "noob". I have a username just like everyone else here." Sorry, jephdood.

 

[jephdood]

Thanks HTG.


Anyhoo, I know I should order one up for a listen, but if I just get one I suspect I may not hear anything above what I've already got. And ordering two with the possible result being return shipping for two.. Well, that's not something I'm willing to attempt.

 

[Gordon McGregor]

Quote:

Originally posted by jephdood Well, that's not something I'm willing to attempt.

May be you will find this review useful ... such small amount of distortions as 2.7% THD at 22 Hz can be rarely found in majority of High-End subs ...
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...r-10-2004.html

P.S. It is the same everywhere, in all forums around the world - people who make, distribute or own high end stuff start talking about the subjective evaluations only, because their equipment can't be compared in measurements ... or DBT ...

 

[Ddavidson]

Quote:

P.S. It is the same everywhere, in all forums around the world - people who make, distribute or own high end stuff start talking about the subjective evaluations only, because their equipment can't be compared in measurements ... or DBT ...

Who is talking about high end products?

We are talking about $700-800 mail order gear, no one even mentioned anything about "results". All that is mentioned was to have a listen to both and make up your own mind in your acoustics. Nothing biased about that. He has one already so he is 1/2 way there.


Just why is that such a bad thing?

Why should he not do it ... if he can?


I can't get over number crunchers total aversion to what you are actually buying audio equipment for "Listening".


It becomes obvious that people who live and die by measurements as some form of exclusive "buyers guide" to audio satisfaction, are just seeking some sort of easy justification for a purchase. Manufacturers marketeers love this method of buying. Sort of like a "buy me" because I read better mentality.


People are being lead down the garden path of falsely believing numbers as the sole reason of audio worth when that is so totally bogus for what at the end of the day is a personal and subjective subject (audio reproduction).


Its funny but marketing based on numbers no matter how you stand on the issue really has an effect on peoples beliefs or disbeliefs. For some people who are into such beliefs its like taking the pill that unknown to them contains nothing that will effect them.


Audio is about personal taste and perception and reading more into it is getting way too close to marketing dribble for my taste.
Quote:

Anyhoo, I know I should order one up for a listen,

One is all you need for the differences will be obvious or not.

Due to room effects and achieving a balance without cancellations most people just stack two subwoofers for the headroom gain. So as long as you level matching within these limits you know only the headroom will change. DBT is great if you can. But of course your only justification is for you ears not everyone else.


Ddavidson

 

[jephdood]

Well, if I was going to do it, I think I'd want to have them ship two to me because the pre-order price would be worth pulling the trigger on both now while they're lower than normal. That, and I'm very curious to see what a pair of PB10's could do.


This isn't buying something based on numbers and that's it, you're stuck.. but I AM trying to justify the cost of a demo. If it's believed (based on numbers, reviews, and a consensus of opinion) that I wouldn't see much of a difference over the Hsu that I already have, then I wouldn't have much motivation to take the risk and have SVS send me a couple o' PB10's..


I did find a thread talking about a recent PB10-ISD demo/get-together attended by Ron Stimpson and some users that was pretty cool though..

Link

 

[Gordon McGregor]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ddavidson Who is talking about high end products? We are talking about $700-800 mail order gear, no one mentioned anything about "results" all that is mentioned was to have a listen to both and make up your mind. He has one already so he is 1/2 way there. Just why is that such a bad thing? Why should he not do it if he can?

Why do you think that I was talking about you? It was a common example about subjective evaluation of the meaning "sound quality".

Nothing wrong is in the wish of listening before buying, I would recommend it as well
Quote:

I can't get over number crunchers total aversion to what you are actually buying audio equipment for "Listening". It becomes obvious that people who live and die by measurements as some form of exclusive "buyers guide" to audio satisfaction, are just seeking some sort of easy justification for a purchase. Manufacturers marketeers love this method of buying. Sort of like a "buy me" because I read better mentality.

Well, not in my case I am always trying to find imperfection if I hear it ... and not justify my purchase ... I can confirm this statement with my modifications. But ... I had been able to improve the sounding because I understood what is the reason of imperfection and found the way how to fix it. Another way could be - to buy stuff without imperfection, if you can find the one "100% satisfying" ... can you? I can't ... at almost any level. This is why I am so happy concerning PB10-ISD, it doesn't need any modification ... it is a smart solution, allowing us to use THX (or standard bass management) electronic crossover in AV processors and receivers without paying for the passive one (with it's proprietary design, matching with the speakers, phase distortions, etc.) in the sub-woofer ...

What are those "electronic crossover" or "bass management"? They are digital filtering algorithms, used in DSP software, therefore they have no phase distortions of analog filtering. I would prefer to use such filters in other speakers as well, instead of the standard analog filters between the tweeters and midrange drivers in majority of modern speakers ... and we have a great example of such approach already: NHT new Xd DSP Powered Speakers.
Quote:

People are being lead down the garden path of falsely believing numbers as the sole reason of audio worth when that is so totally bogus for what at the end of the day is a personal and subjective subject (audio reproduction). Its funny but marketing based on numbers no matter how you stand on the issue really has an effect on peoples beliefs or disbeliefs. For some people who are into such beliefs its like taking the pill that unknown to them contains nothing that will effect them.

Based on your suggestion, all engineers have to make the equipment just using their hearing systems, and anyway they would be wrong, because it is their personal hearing, which is not suitable to everyone else.

There is no magic in AV science, Sir ... we just need to understand some common principles, discovered and explained by such people as Nelson Pass, Charles Hansen, David Griesinger, Robert Stuart, etc. and read AES materials, then we will know more and will be able to predict the limitations in equipment.
Quote:

Audio is about personal taste and perception and reading more into it is getting way too close to marketing dribble for my taste. One is all you need for the differences will be obvious or not.

If audio is only a personal taste, why are you in AV science forum? In this case it is the same as to share your opinion about the taste of your breakfast then ...
Quote:

Due to room effects and achieving a balance without cancellations most people just stack two sub-woofers for the headroom gain. So as long as you level matching within these limits you know only the headroom will change. DBT is great if you can. But of course your only justification is for you ears not everyone else. Ddavidson

How about your family members and your friends? Do you intend to dominate them with your taste or build separate room with the separate equipment for each member of the family?

We KNOW how to compensate room effects (here is a nice article about it, for example http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm ) - it is not a rocket science ... We know a lot of other things ... and finally, sound quality is not a subjective matter ...
http://www.fact-index.com/s/so/sound_quality.html
Quote:

Sound quality generally refers to the quality of the audio output from various electronic devices. Sound quality can be defined as the degree of accuracy with which a device records or emits the original sound waves.

Another source:
http://acoustics.aau.dk/research/SQRU/reswhat.php
Quote:

When specified as quality of reproduced sound, it refers to the fidelity with which the original sound event is transmitted from one location to another via a sound-generating device. "Sound quality", in this context, characterizes the capability of the reproduction system to convey an impression close to the original one.

What means "close to the original one"? It means no distortions, no changes in spectrum, the same or similar level of FR and sound pressure, etc. The difference between the original sound and the reproduced sound CAN BE MEASURED ... Do you personally like the guitar sounding or not has no relation to the sound quality of the musical system, reproducing those guitar sounds ...

The same with sub-woofers. It's task to be considered as having good sound quality is to reproduce the original sound wave, recorded on the media as close to the original as possible - without your personal preferences!!! In this case it should produce less distortions, be linear to make no changes in spectrum, have less delay, produce enough sound pressure - exactly the points, which I have mentioned before. We need to achive quality of the original sounding in our systems, then we can adjust a level of volume, timbres, sound stage, surround modes, etc ... in accordance with our personal preferences. But if we will try to design devices without the common rules, that will be a chaos ... The reason to create the THX standard was to forget about the chaos in audio mastering and equipment and start to use the common standards ... to make multi-channel stage as close to the original one, created by the audio engineer ...