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Discussion Starter #1
:confused:

I've spent a good few months researching the Sony 11HT and it's only the more recent weeks that interesting feedback is appearing.


While there is an image and contrast improvement, there is a little bit of contention regarding screen type. Up until now, the Grayhawk or grey paint has seemed the road to follow, but Glenn Refling's thread dated 18 Nov 5:56pm "Sharp 9000 on 1.3 gain screen" has confused my brain again.


This is now another Mendicino Moment for me.


Is there a better choice for the Sony 11HT? Grayhawk style or a low gain type? Ambient light is zero dungeon level in my HT.


Miro.
 

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Hi,


I’m in the same boat. I too have an 11HT and am about to pull the trigger and order my screen. I have agonized for hours over the postings on this forum to try and come up with the best fit for my situation. You didn’t mention how large your screen needs to be, but I’ll tell you my current rationalization on the screen I am ordering.


I’m doing an approximately 120†diagonal screen and have total light control. I was initially leaning towards either the Stewart GrayHawk or the Da-Lite High Contrast Da-Mat. They are both gray screens with a .95 and .8 gain respectively. They are both supposed to improve blacks and contrast ratios.


Thru A LOT of reading on this forum, I stumbled across the discussions on foot-lamberts readings. Basically, it’s a measurement of the brightness of the image that will be coming back off your screen. The SMTPE recommendation for home theater projector is a reading of between 15 and 20 foot-lamberts. The calculation for foot-lamberts is (projector lumens/screen sq ft)*screen gain.


For a 120†screen I wasn’t able to get what I felt were high enough foot-lamberts measurements using either the GrayHawk or the HC Da-Mat. BUT with the Da-Lite Da-Mat screen (1.1 gain) I was able to get a theoretical foot-lambert value of 21 and 26 for Cinema mode vs Full mode. Based on that I am assuming a real-world reading more along the lines 15 and 20 (75% of the theoretical).


To achieve better blacks and contrast, instead of using the gray screen, I’ll be using Steve Smallcombe’s approach of a red color-compensating filter (search the forum for CC10R, CC20R or CC30R to see discussions about using a filter). From what I understand, the Sony projectors are pushing too much Green and Blue, and the Red filter pulls the colors back into a better balance, thus improving the contrast. This link is an example of what a CC filter does. http://www01.bhphotovideo.com/images/items/100222.jpg A good resin CC filter will be around $65.


Should you be using a smaller screen than 120†and are able to get acceptable foot-lambert numbers using the GrayHawk or HC Da-Mat, I hear thru all of the discussions on this forum that the Da-Lite HC Da-Mat performs better in the absence of ambient light (your dungeon) than does the GrayHawk, which performs better in the presence of ambient light. And, if it matters, the GrayHawk is at least 33% more $$$ than the Da-Lite.
 

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Great info. I'm leaning heavilly towards the VW11HT now, and wondering what kind of material I should get for a 96" wide 16:9 screen w/ ambient light. I've been thinking Grayhawk.


BTW, www.projectors-onsale.com has the 11HT in stock.
 

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Quote:
To achieve better blacks and contrast, instead of using the gray screen, I’ll be using Steve Smallcombe’s approach of a red color-compensating filter
You can do both. Even after the filter tweak the Sony could still stand to have deeper black level.


-dave
 

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Guys FWIW...


I was the one who insisted that anyone in the Toronto area should go see the Sharp 9000 & the Sony 11HT at Custom Cinema & Glenn Refling did just that. We have now both seen the Sony 11HT on a 1.3 gain screen & I will vouch for Glenn that it was most impressive.


I have also seen the Sony on a Grayhawk & it wasn't as nice as it was on this 1.3 gain Stewart screen so it may have been the calibration or whatever but the 1.3 gain screen won hands down for me.


No question the contrast & brightness was better than the Grayhawk but you should try & find someone in your area so that you can also have a look before you decide to buy it.


Just my 2 cents.

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter #7
And a worthy two cents it is...


I can't get a demo of the Sony 11HT or any gray screen in my area, not without serious travelling, which is a shame. The screen I have seen demoed for a Sanyo 60 and Sim2 HT200, is an ordinary matte white electric job, sourced from Owl, UK importers and distributers. I don't know the gain but I presume it would have been 1.something. Useless info but I'll find out tomorrow. The image was bright and lively on the LCD but a little washed out on the DLP, but thats another story. However, some light was entering through curtains and did have an effect.


Probably the best way is to buy the Sony then try to get a material sample pack. It sounds like the 1.3 gain may be just right for a light controlled room, but for ambient light intrusion a grey screen would do better. Does anyone agree with me?


Chris, generally, was the shadow detail visible during your tests? BTW, I'm a bit of a black lover like our Mr Mendicinio.


For a better CCxR image try http://www01.bhphotovideo.com/defaul...ID=EA8158CBBC0


Cheers,


Miro.


PS. My desire is 7ft wide(96"diag) maximum.
 

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Miro,


I watched Notting Hill on the 1.3 screen with the 11HT and found that the details were okay but the black level was not as dark as for the Sharp 9000 on the same screen. A good example can be seen when Hugh Grant is pretending to be a journalist and comes to interview Julia Roberts. He's wearing a dark jacket. The striping of teh materiel and details of the lapel can be picked out with both projectors but the Sharp showed a clearer, yet darker image of the jacket. This was only evident with close examination and running the scene through both projectors a few times. My wife, who miraculously can find my faults at very long distances, found no fault with either image, but if you were picky it was there. It should be said the Sony was ceiling mounted and the Sharp was table mounted (or more exactly chair mounted).
 

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When you start talking about screen materials in ambient light conditions, you really need to talk to a pro and not a newbie like me (but that won’t stop me from at least throwing out a couple thoughts for more knowledgeable people to expand upon ;) ).


I would think that as ambient light increased you would want a higher gain screen and not a low gain screen like a gray. When the gain of the screen goes up, the light coming back from the screen becomes more focused and thus concentrated back towards the viewer. You want more light to come back at the viewer to compensate for the ambient light in the room that would wash the picture out. That is why as the gain goes up on the screen the field of view diminishes (meaning you have to sit more in the middle of the room). Since I have control over the light, and my room layout is going to be more of a pit rather than rows of seats like a theater, I don’t want to get too high of a gain screen or else the people on the sides (not perpendicular to the screen) won’t see a very good picture.


As I mentioned before, in reading other posts in the forum, when you have no ambient light the room, people seem to slightly preferred the High Contrast Da-Mat over the GrayHawk. But when ambient light was introduced, the GrayHawk was preferred over the HC Da-Mat. This is probably because of the higher gain of the GrayHawk.


Chris speaks very highly of the 1.3 gain screens. I considered one for a while, but, in my opinion, the Sony is a pretty darn bright projector (about 20% brighter than the Sharp). I was afraid that in my dark theater room that the image on a 1.3 gain screen may be too bright and start to cause fatigue after awhile. If you go to the movies and actually watch the presentation and not the movie, you will see that the image isn’t very bright at all. I believe theaters shoot for a brightness around 11 to 12 foot-lamberts (to tie in with my previous post).


And lastly, gray screens vs color compensating filters. From the very little I know about color and RGB, it is my understanding that the contrast/shadow details are in the red and the luminescence is in the green (which is why if you want to convert a color picture to black and white, you break it down into RGB and then discard the G and the B). Since I am told that the Sony projector really pushes the green and blue, it stands to reason that the green luminescence is overwhelming the red and thus the shadow detail. The filter pulls this back into line. I have no idea what the actual color formula is that they are using make these gray screens, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a little bit of red thrown in there with the black and white to pull out that shadow detail.


Other than that, I am willing to accept that I wont have the blackest blacks, but its not the end of the world.
 

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I see my name, so I must respond :)


Chris Dallas, what was the gain of the screen that they were using at Brack's, if you remember? I know it was NOT a greyhawk, for certain, but I could not remember if it was matte, or 1.3 gain.


While this may be completely useless, I do find it interesting the growing push towards 1.3 gain for the 11ht. I remember that the Greyhawk was actually designed with the Sony 10HT as the model prototype. The 11HT, one would assume, would gain even more benifit from this screen.


Alas, I have yet to see the grayhawk in use with anything. BUT, I will be making my rounds once I finish the next couple of hell weeks at UofT. (School has become a distraction for my Home Theatre endeavours...hehehe)
 

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David,


Canadian Sound in Brampton (Queen St, a couple of blocks west of the 410) has a theater room set up with the 11HT and a 96 in GrayHawk screen. So put it on your list of post exam treats if you're interested in what the combo looks like.
 

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Miro...


The Sony 11HT has the best blacks from any LCD projector that I've seen to date. Although the blacks were better on the Sharp it is a different animal altogether.


David..


I'm pretty sure that Bracks is using a matte screen.


Chris
 

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Good to know.


Chris, have you seen the Sanyo XP21, or any of the high contrast LCD's? I have forgotten what you said, and just want to know your point of reference.


(In that case, how badly does your Sharp destroy the 11HT in terms of black levels, as I am sure such a devastation is the case)
 

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I just finished installing my 11HT. I'm using a da-mat ( matt-white)permwall 133" diagonal screen and I'm so impressed i don't want to leave the house!. When people come over the house and I show them what I have their jaws drop to the floor.
 

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No David I haven't seen the XP21 & the Sharp doesn't destroy the Sony either. They are both good in blacks it's just that the Sharp is better.
 

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I guess we have a subjectively different opinion on good blacks.


With the 11HT, with little light in the room at all..when I set it to no input..the black on the screen had a distinctive, bright, grey glow. This is as black as it gets, even with brightness set to the lowest point.


If the source is supposed to be 0IRE, and you look in the lens and it is bright enough to still hurt your eyes...then the black level just isn't going to be that good.
 

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Oh decisions decisions. Just have to wait till I get my 11HT and test with the grayhawk and a matte white samples. I don't think I'd want to swing all the way to high gain.


Anybody know of a VW11HT being demoed in the LA area?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Well I'll have to agree with JB72 and just try a sample test when I get my 11HT.


Variations occur with every projector so a different perspective from everyone should be expected. The enviroment plays such an important role each screen type from 0.8 to 1.3 may need to be demoed. That's quite a task for those of us with poor access to HT wares.


Black detail is important to me. After comparing LCD and DLP side by side the lack of black detail shocked me with what was missing. DLP tech. diddles with my eyes so it has to be LCD (LCOS/DILA $$$ B4 you all shout).


To me, getting better blacks with detail would seem to need a CC filter and the appropriate screen for the room. Whether grey or low gain depends upon the filters' effect. I really don't want to fit a filter though.


The Sanyo 60 I demoed on matte white couldn't improve the blacks in any way with the settings; it just reached its limit on the matte white. Maybe I'm expecting too much from the Sony, but if we all sit in a dark room and watch the movie, blacks don't worry us much. Just try Lost In Space from the beginning and think about blacks afterwards. What did you observe?


Yes... Decisions... Decisions...


Miro.
 
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