[deafgoose]

Sales people are telling me that the Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXVi will probably only push 30watts/ch all channels driven. They recommended the NAD T773 and said that their wattage ratings are accurate but most other companies are not.


They also said there is a new wattage rating system that will be implemented soon that will make it impossible for manufactures to "fudge" numbers.


Is there really truth to this or are they just trying to make more money since the NAD is almost 2X the price?

 

[CCarncross]

To my knowledge, Elite gear has typically tested very close to published wattage numbers, so it sounds like you might be getting snowed a little...

 

[deafgoose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCarncross To my knowledge, Elite gear has typically tested very close to published wattage numbers, so it sounds like you might be getting snowed a little...

Would the "average guy" know the differece in sound between one or the other?


They are making the NAD sound like its the only thing worth spending money on.

 

[wje]

Quote:

They are making the NAD sound like its the only thing worth spending money on.

Of course, they're going to push NAD, because that's what they sell. It would be nice to see what they really thought ... if they were not going to get a comission on the sale.


Take your time. Listen to what you have on your short list. You might want to take a bit of a break from that retailer, too. I'm sure NAD is quite good, but there's a whole bunch of other great gear out there.

 

[Johnla]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafgoose are they just trying to make more money since the NAD is almost 2X the price?

BINGO!

 

[deafgoose]

Well that makes me feel better.


I would think that it's illegal to list specs unless they are true. I know some specs can be misleading like "dynamic power" but when they list the ratings of "140w X 7 20HZ - 20kHZ @ 8 ohm, 0.09%THD" anything less would be lying!

 

[Bikedorian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafgoose anything less would be lying!

Welcome to marketing. It's not really lying. It's giving the customer what they want.


David

 

[Stereodude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikedorian Welcome to marketing. It's not really lying. It's giving the customer what they want. David

When stuff is listed that like it's not marketing. It is a true power output that can be measured for any channel that's rated that way. The catch is that there's nothing forcing the manufacturers to size the power supply in such a way that the unit can deliver the same amount of power with all channels driven simultaneously.

 

[cyberbri]

The trick is if it says "both(2-channel mode)/all channels driven" with that power rating.


Magazine reviews also usually test actual power ratings, and you may find that the actual they find is more/less than the listed specs.

 

[JohnTheDoe]

I really get a kicker when some of my friends say their Sony DVD in a box theater gives 650W ! Then I asked them to look at the manual. It'll be something like rated "80W x 1 channel - 2 Khz - 10% THD x 4ohm".


I tell them 10% THD is like listening to AM radio with your blender on.

 

[rbrb]

How the amp is measured is determining factor also. Is the amp actually hooked up to a speaker that would represent an actual load or is it hooked up to a resistor then measured? Is one channel measured or all channels driven at the same time?


NAD's measurements are more like what the amp would see in the real world.


It's no different than horsepower ratings in the automotive world. Companies like VW for instance measure HP at the wheel, companies like Acura measure at the crankshaft. Which rating has more value?

 

[Stereodude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbrb It's no different than horsepower ratings in the automotive world. Companies like VW for instance measure HP at the wheel, companies like Acura measure at the crankshaft. Which rating has more value?

Everyone used to measure at the crank. Now the new SAE standard specifies that HP should be meased at the wheels.

 

[ueckerj]

At least it isnt as bad as car audio. All my friends have 5000 Watt Amps in they cars

 

[louthewiz]

But even those so called 1000 watt car amps dont really push that much wattage.

 

[hdkhang]

It's misleading in some senses, but not enough material out there forces the equipment to max out all channels at once so many people don't care. I would like the real ratings though, if nothing but to compare.


Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang

 

[Bimwad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbrb It's no different than horsepower ratings in the automotive world. Companies like VW for instance measure HP at the wheel, companies like Acura measure at the crankshaft. Which rating has more value?

VW does not quote horsepower any differently than Acura does.


Different regions of the world use slightly different testing definitions and procedures for measuring horsepower (SAE, DIN, JIS), but within those regions, all companies give ratings that conform to a single standard. All automakers quote rated horsepower at the flywheel, not the wheel horsepower.


While horsepower ratings can be and are fudged like wattage ratings (Mazda and Ford have been caught), they don't use the same tactics. The 1k-vs.-full range or one-vs.-all channels driven type of common trickery is analogous to flywheel-vs.-wheel horsepower, but the method is not employed in horsepower ratings. In the U.S., everyone quotes figures based on the same SAE net standard -- all accessories driven, at the flywheel. The standard has even been tightened up in the recent past, including the requirement for an independent witness to certify the tests.


Jaguar did try to make a nice round marketing number on one of their R models (400, while the competitor "only" had 394) by quoting bhp measured using one of the other standards, by they relented when pressured. Using the same standard, there was no difference.

 

[fergusonv]

Well I think most companies do fudge numbers on wattage with Pioneer being at the top with the worst of them. I'm not saying they make a bad product but thier products do not provide the power they imply thier products will. Some companies have a very good reputation for providing more accurate numbers, Outlaw, H/K, NAD, etc, and if I were going to buy based on numbers I would buy from a companie that has a reputation of providing real/accurate numbers. When you have two products sitting side by side, one wieghs 90 pounds and costs a couple thousand dollars and one wieghs 20 pounds and costs 400 dollars do you really think they both provide 110x7?

 

[oztech]

if a amp or reciever has the thx ultra logo it is suppose to have the wattage advertised all channels driven are they misleading us.

 

[oddjob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fergusonv ...one wieghs 90 pounds and costs a couple thousand dollars and one wieghs 20 pounds and costs 400 dollars do you really think they both provide 110x7?

Weight and price may have some merit for an analog amplifier. If it's digital, it will be more like $250 and 10 pounds for 7*110W e.g. Panasonic SA-XR55S - it's rated at 100W/channel into 6 ohms and has been measured at 7*[email protected], and 7*[email protected]


Don't even think about buying an amplifier based on how heavy or expensive it is. If the amplifiers you are interested in are in the store and set up, take a listen and pump up the volume. Bring a test disk with you e.g. Avia and play the wideband asynchronous pink noise 5 channels. Realistically, you won't be able to test out the manufacturer power ratings in the store but run it loud with all channels driven and see how hot it gets. My guess is the store will kick you out if you want to run pink noise at full volume for 10 minutes

 

[eclou]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stereodude Now the new SAE standard specifies that HP should be meased at the wheels.

No. That has nothing to do with SAE whatsoever. SAE std specifies that the engine must have all the accessories connected such as the PS pump, AC, waterpump, alternator, etc - the way the car will be delivered.