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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am wondering if I should upgrade my surround processor...


right now, i'm using a Kenwood VR-407. which does DD5.1 and DTS5.1


It doesn't do any ES modes or virtual 7 modes (it only drives 5.1 speakers).


What I want is 7.1 discreet channels; but i wonder when if ever this will come out?


I am considering a Denon 3802, which does ES and virtual 7 modes.. but I might just wait for a true discreet 7.1 mode to come out and gain some support.


any thoughts?


Thanks,

Harlan


p.s. this is to go with my recently purchased 7 speakers (Diva 6.1/R3/C3/2.1)
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Along those lines, anyone tried the Harman Kardon AVR8000?


Thanks,

Harlan
 

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I doubt that a "real" discrete 7.1 channel format will come out any time soon. By real, I mean a discrete 7.1 channel source. Lexicon's 7.1 is a discrete 7.1 channel in that each channel is unique compared to the others but the side and rear surround channels are created by algorithm from the L/R and LR/RR channels.


Where does it end? 100.1? 200.1? Don't get me wrong I think that Lex's 7.1 is invaluable and I'd never go back to 5.1. I actually used the possibility of having side and rear surround speakers as my most important criteria in finding my current apartment (much to the dismay of my fiance). But at some point its definitely unnecessary.
 

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Forgot to talk about the HK AVR-8000. Lexicon and Harman Kardan are both Harman International companies and I believe that Lexicon has given the Logic7 algorithm to HK. So I would imagine that its pretty good at 7.1.


One thing to keep in mind tho is that the AVR-8000 has 7.1 pre-amp outputs but does not have internal amplification for the last 2 channels. So without an external amp the 8000 is only 5.1.
 

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I hope you guys know that the whole moving up in the number of channels is a scheme designed by the manufacturer/studio so that they could force us guys to constantly upgrade our gears.


3.0, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 10.3... This will never stop. Why don't they just sell us the gear capable of the maximum number of channels and provide the source when available?


There are formats out there that could produce totally discrete channels independent of the number recorded channels. Ambisonic has been around for a very long time, but Dolby, with its might, muscled their totally junk DPL into as a the standard, and lead us down this useless path of discrete record/carrier/playback channels.


Ambisonic does not have a concept of recording or playback channels. It's sound is recorded as vectors in 3-D space, composing of W(mono), X, Y and Z. Total 3-D recording requires 4 carrier channels. Playback could be anything from 4 to 6 to 8 to 16 to 32 discrete channels, inlcuding multiple height speakers. Plus it's sound recreation technique is light years ahead of the primitive pan-pot method that is used in practically all multi-channel recordings.



You have to wake up and realize that all of you are being taken as suckers. Don't be a slave to the constant planned obsolescence.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Harlan
What I want is 7.1 discreet channels; but i wonder when if ever this will come out?
Harlan,


I agree with Erik: I doubt we'll see discrete 7.1 channel recordings for consumers any time soon. However, there is always the chance that more channels (height info, etc) will get folded into the 5.1 channel format (which, at this point, is a reasonably well established standard).


As for whether you should upgrade your processor: since you already have 7 speakers, I say go for it! Having side speakers and rear speakers will allow for better envelopment, especially for those not sitting in the sweet spot. Four surround speakers will also allow for better separation of sounds that are supposed to come from behind you vs. sounds that are placed directly to either side of you; this is something you just can't do well (if at all) with only 2 surround speakers.


And just your luck, 7 channel receivers and surround processors are getting cheaper by the minute. ;)


Best,

Sanjay
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks everyone for all the helpful information...


the hk-8000 is not for me... i need 7 channels of amplification.


So, it's either the hk-520 or the Denon 3802... but the Denon doesn't do the logic7 modes..


any suggestions. 1500$ is my max.


thanks,

Harlan
 

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Wait a minute unless your out in the middle of a corn field, you better have some bread for the man. Disturbing the peace fine(s) for you to pay, my last one

in 1994 was $125 including *costs*. :rolleyes:
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by lwang
I hope you guys know that the whole moving up in the number of channels is a scheme designed by the manufacturer/studio so that they could force us guys to constantly upgrade our gears.You have to wake up and realize that all of you are being taken as suckers. Don't be a slave to the constant planned obsolescence.
I have to say that is sadly delusional and a bit paranoid. Manufacturers would be happy not to be constantly chasing the latest feature set the market place demands. There would be much lower development costs and longer time on market.


Higher numbers of channels of delivered information are part of audio progress. Two channels are better then one, 6 better then two.

If you don't like the progress, don't buy it.

Your equipment will still work just fine.
 

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I'm with Buzz!! "If you don't like it...don't buy it!" When I bought my Denon 3 years ago the sales rep tried pushing a DTS equipped receiver...I asked how many DVD's were encoded with DTS...at that time about6-10 were..I told him when they are readily available then I will think about it! Well 3 years later...DTS STILL is not a major player enough for ME to invest in it (others may feel differently).


For ME, I will only by a 7.1 system that works off existing 5.1 software like Logic7 or THX Ultra 2. We will all be 80 years old by the time manufacturers can stay on pace with the movie companies!


I say we ALL go back to MONO and save some money!!..lmao!!!


Mike
 

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Buzz, Mike,


I think you guys misunderstood what I said. What I am saying is not to go back to mono, but the fact that the dominant players are incrementally coming out with slight improvements and wanting us to upgrade just for that slight improvement.


As the whole Ambisonic explaination said. There are formats out there that does not force you to have a set number of playback channels. All the information that is ever needed is encoded in its 4 carrier channel format. How it is played back is up to you and your equipment.


Go for the basic setup of 2ch, do surround with 4ch, do super surround with 12ch, go all the way with speaker at every location with 32ch, double that with a second set of speakers for height with 64ch.


For all that type of playback, all you need is the origianl 4ch Ambisonic recording.


Do a little research on ambisonic and its codec and you will realize it was light years ahead of DPL, but the giant always quashes the little guys.


All Meridian gears has Ambisonic decoding capability for a reason.
 

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Lwang,

there has been consistent documentation that it takes 7 speakers to create a 360 degree holosonic sound field.


A 4 speaker home theater setup is a nightmare to create stable lateral and hard center (dialogue) imaging.


I would agree that many setups (because of placement of the listening position and speakers) do not benefit from adding additional channels.


I believe the format revolution has the hurt the company that is trying to produce a state of the art processor. Who the heck needs NEO 6 when DPL II and Logic 7 clearly provide a more immersive experience. Do you think anyone at Lexicon really believed that NEO 6 was absolute necessity for the MC12b?


Buzz,

I bet the Tag development group is thrilled with a scrap and redo everytime someone at DTS or Dolby dreams up a new codec. Argghh!
 

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Are there any source materials in ambisonic? It sounds very cool but would I want to invest any money into getting hardware to support it if there is no source material available?
 

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Don O,


As Michael Gerzon of Ambisonic fame said, you need hundred of thousands of speaker to fully reproduce live sound, their seperation within the limit of human localization perception. But since that is theoretical, a smaller number will have to do.


The usual 7 speaker setup is only required on flawed recording technique like the usual pan-pot mixing that goes on in std 5.1 recordings. Ambisonic speakers surrounding the listener, produce soundwaves that collectively converge at one point (the center of the listeners head) to form the same rarefactions and compressions, including their directional components, that were recorded.


So 4 would be the minimum, 7,10,26,32,64 would be preferred, and all ambisonic recordings since first inception could be played back in today's 32 ch system. It is even compatable with 1 and 2 ch playback. This is all from one single recording, not 20 different versions for 20 different speaker layouts.


As you can see in the link, the inability to have side imaging is not due to the 4 channel layout, but is due to the way sound is recorded/mixed in a miltichannel environment:

http://members.tripod.com/martin_lee...nic/exper.html



Don't forget, Ambisonic is not just 360 deg sound holosonic, but periphonic, which means sound capture and reproduction in all 3 axis. It is nothing like DPLII or Logic 7, nothing is simulated or extracted. All speaker info is real.



Eric,


There are many sources recorded in ambisonic. Since it requires 4 channels (B-format) to capture the whole 3-D sound and CD has only 2, the height vector information has been dropped and the WXY axis information were matrixed into 2 channels, which is called the UHJ process. There is a big volume of CDs out there that has UHJ encoding. It is not big in terms of critical mass where everyone has to have it like AC-3, but it is big enough to have its following.


The recent Chesky's Sing Live disc was recorded in Ambisonic method, but it looks like they processed it to conform to their 6.0 format instead of keeping it in the origianl B-format or UHJ.


You don't have to get dedicated hardware if you want to experience it. Meridian processors has ambisonic decoding capability. With some being able to decode 4 ch B-format from DD/DTS or DVD-A for 3-D sound.
 

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I could see the desire for music fans. But is there any source material for HT? Cause my system is like 95% HT and 5% status symbol with music use in the remainder.
 

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I have the Onkyo TX-DS898 and it is 7.1, as is the 989, when upgraded through its RS232 port. It says it has a 7 channel amplifier. Is this not discreet 7.1?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by jmmesch
I have the Onkyo TX-DS898 and it is 7.1, as is the 989, when upgraded through its RS232 port. It says it has a 7 channel amplifier. Is this not discreet 7.1?
If your Onkyo supported 20.6 channels it still can't do much with it without the software. The discussion centers on the content we play, not the number of channels the processor or amp contains.


But I do want to see a 20.6 receiver!
 

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jmmesch:

Any 7.1 receiver currently may play discrete 7.1 in that each channel is unique when compared to the others but there is no discrete 7.1 source. It is always created by some sort of algorithm using the 5.1 (or I guess 6.1 now with discrete 6.1 sources) channels currently in the source material.


So it depends on your definition of discrete 7.1. If you mean each channel is unique then my guess is that your Onkyo does it. If you mean 7.1 discrete from the source then nobody's processor does it.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by erikk


Where does it end? 100.1? 200.1? Don't get me wrong I think that Lex's 7.1 is invaluable and I'd never go back to 5.1. I actually used the possibility of having side and rear surround speakers as my most important criteria in finding my current apartment (much to the dismay of my fiance). But at some point its definitely unnecessary.


Better resolution is better. I would like to see 6.1.100 with the 100 being very specialized speakers that would take advantage of the fact that we can not detect direction from many high and low frequencies. This is something that is taken advantage by audio compression formats and corner room sub placement. I have not thought about this till you brought it up, but now I want it real bad. How cool would that be you could put them in the ceiling and close to the floor. True surround at it's finest...
 

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To Buzz Goddard:
Quote:
The discussion centers on the content we play, not the number of channels the processor or amp contains.
With all due respect, I must say to you "tell me about it!" See erikk's post above yours:

Quote:
Originally posted by erikk
Forgot to talk about the HK AVR-8000. Lexicon and Harman Kardan are both Harman International companies and I believe that Lexicon has given the Logic7 algorithm to HK. So I would imagine that its pretty good at 7.1.


One thing to keep in mind tho is that the AVR-8000 has 7.1 pre-amp outputs but does not have internal amplification for the last 2 channels. So without an external amp the 8000 is only 5.1.
I'm obviously not the only one talking about the number of channels the processor or amp contains. The next time you want to chastise someone on a forum, think twice, and read all of the posts for context.
 
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