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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Five or six years ago I bought a 32" Sony XBR squared TV. When I sold it last year it still had a great picture. Other than the switch to 16*9, TV's haven't changed much in years (hence the rabid competition and cheap prices).


I've lived without TV (gasp) for a year now waiting for front projectors to mature. I'm still waiting...


So when will the basic FP issues be addressed (16*9 and bright enough to use as a primary TV in a normal room) without the hassles (rainbows, depixellizers, exotic lenses, hush boxes, NASA screens, complete light control, etc.)?


FP makes great sense as an apartment dweller (light-weight and portable) but after hanging out here for six months nothing seems to have changed.


Give me some good news!
 

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Projectors are not gonna stablize anytime soon. They will be similar to computers and keep improving and getting cheaper. Projectors still have a ways to go.
 

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We are seeing rapid progress with a lot of new technologies and new innovations, as well as continued improvement in price/performance.


I would say that you have to decide when you want to get in and how much you want to spend, and then do it.


I don't see a point for the next several years when things will be "stable" in the sense you are mentioning.

 

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I should think that over the next five years we'll see some of the major shortcomings begin to be eliminated. Remember, we're just coming out of an era when most projectors have been business presentation projectors adapted to HT use. Now, some of the manufacturers are building units for HT use from the ground up, beginning to address some of the shortcomings.


I am hopeful the day will come when we see 3 chip DLP projectors for under $10,000. Am I dreaming?


By the way, I recently saw a 3 chip DLP Runco with an anamorphic lens attached sitting at my local dealer waiting to be installed in a customer's house. Can you imagine how great that thing could look?


Deane


[This message has been edited by Deane Johnson (edited 08-29-2001).]
 

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I would like to point out the historical and technical context here. For example:
http://www.tvhistory.tv/1949_Hallicrafters_T505_Ad.jpg


A decent B/W TV back then was $170 to $700. You could pay a lot more. $170 was about the monthly wage of the average worker. For $700, you could buy a new Chevy.


This was after 20 years of TV development, from the Baird Steam Type television, (Mechanical scanning disk), and the Farnsworth all-electronic approach, to mass production.

Radio technology took decades longer; the first commercial broadcasts from Doc Harrold's lab around 1912, to the widespread adoption of FM Stereo in the '60's.

Bye these yardsticks, FP has a _long_ way to go. Just in terms of economics, when you can buy a reliable, standard, video solution for one _day's_ pay, you can probably say that the technology is stabilized. That means no Steam Type mono DLPs, no permanent mount RPTVs or CRTs, no added processors or lenses or HTPCs.

A single chip three color DLP, or equivalent, for about $170 in 2001 dollars. Screens incorporated into drapes, or better yet, lightweight frames hung on walls with all electronics built in. I give it about 5-10 years.

Yawn. What will _we_ be playing with then? 3D? Smellovision? Direct Neural projection?

Books?

apg
 

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Guys, don't forget there is such a thing as Moore's Law. Although it applies specifically to the exponential growth of processing power I believe it can also be applied to other technologies. Plus with the advent of nanotechnology and molecular electronics you have to start to realize that yes, technologies such as the 3 chip DLP may take years to get down to affordable levels, but sooner than later all the scaling and audio functions used in an HTPC or scaler will be included in the projector itself for little additional cost. I'll leave you with something I just read. "Because of Moore's law in the next 100 years we won't experience 100 yrs of technological growth, but 20,000". Just my two cents.
 

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"Guys, don't forget there is such a thing as Moore's Law. Although it applies specifically to the exponential growth of processing power I believe it can also be applied to other technologies."


Interesting point, but I believe that it only applies to evolving technologies- in 100 years, there has not been much improvement in, or significant reduction in cost of, the Buggy Whip.


"Because of Moore's law in the next 100 years we won't experience 100 yrs of technological growth, but 20,000".


In terms of quantity, yes. Quality? When was the last time you saw an outstanding B/W broadcast? NTSC color killed it by appropriating the bandwidth. Technologies that fall by the wayside in the singleminded search of growth are not necessarily mature or obsolete.

Why do I care about B/W? This weekend, our little HT group is going to watch "Dr. Strangelove". I hate to think that this movie is the HT equivalent of a Buggy Whip...

apg

"You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
 

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Quote:
bright enough to use as a primary TV in a normal room
By "normal", you mean no window shades/regular room lighting? You not only need the PJ to be bright enough, but your screen has to also be dark enough. Imagine what your greyhawk looks like with all the lights on in the room? Pretty white, right? Well, thats the blackest your screen is going to get in dark scenes.


I don't see a solution for that anytime soon.


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Alex
 

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Quote:
Imagine what your greyhawk looks like with all the lights on in the room? Pretty white, right? Well, thats the blackest your screen is going to get in dark scenes.

I don't see a solution for that anytime soon.
What about the new black screen ?

If it really looks black, you'll be able to get true blacks at a bright room. Oh, this black screen is also high gain.
 

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Gentlemen,


Front projection will never be able to meet all the criteria that Red Brian is looking for since he specified FP with will ALWAYS require a semi-light controlled environment.


Having said that, please realize that the overall technology and image quality of the current gen of FP's is incredibly good. If you really want a large screen that can be viewed in a high ambient light situation, then look at rear projected technology. That technology can still use a small/inexpensive DLP or LCOS projector and a mirror with a rear projection screen.


I think the real question is when will the (evil) consumer electronics industry realize that TV's are obsolete and start producing "inexpensive" front and rear projectors. The good news is that this is happening now. The DLP HD 16:9 DMD chips are very good. The bulb technology is stable and the prices will enevitably come down. The scaling/deinterlacers are getting very good for the average person to appreciate.


No predictions from me, BUT the fact that Yamaha, Sony, JVC, Sharp, Mitsu and Phillips(etc) are all producing HT based projectors is a great sign that the technology is mature. Does it have room for improvement? Sure. Is it better than your TV? Definitely.


Question? Has anyone ever wondered why they keep cramming more and more electronics into projectors when it really makes more sense to create a seperate controller/scaler/deinterlacer? I mean think about it, a projector is the last place you really want sensitive electronics... Just wondering..


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Later, LordHz

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"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts."

-Albert Einstein
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Jones_Rush:
What about the new black screen ?

If it really looks black, you'll be able to get true blacks at a bright room. Oh, this black screen is also high gain.
A High Gain black screen, what a terrific idea! But you should have patented such an ingenius idea before throwing it out to the public domain.

 

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Jonmx, I can't patent this "idea" because this high gain black screen already exist in reality and will be showed at CEDIA this year.



[This message has been edited by Jones_Rush (edited 08-29-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
"A decent B/W TV back then was $170 to $700. You could pay a lot more. $170 was about the monthly wage of the average worker. For $700, you could buy a new Chevy."


How did the black and white to color TV transition go?

Did everyone jump on board or is it like HDTV with lots of confusion and very little to watch?


P.S. I don't mind closing the blinds and dimming the lights but I've yet to see a apartment rental contract that allows blackout drapes and black walls http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif .
 

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This site has a good history of Television. http://www.novia.net/~ereitan/


--To summarize, Color TV is fifty years old this year.

--First sets went on sale in 1954, for $1000 each! (a car again)

--Ten years later, sales took off (broke 1 Million per year).


__I remember my family's first color TV in 1965, very little of the primetime lineup was broadcast in color. Several years later, all of it was in color.

__The set was a ROUND faced RCA - getting proper color required constant tweaking (I was the only one who could tune it in the family) and a big antenna/rotor on the roof. (and this was only 15 miles from downtown Pittsburgh)


JasG (who is not holding his breath for HDTV, but it looks to be happening faster than color)
 

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"How did the black and white to color TV transition go?

Did everyone jump on board or is it like HDTV with lots of confusion and very little to watch?"


You have it exactly right on your second guess, and in fact, the current HDTV mess was quite deliberately modeled on the B/W:Color wars. Lots of money to be made that way, with quality of secondary importance, mainly used for marketing. It settled out regionally, with three surviving formats, NTSC, SECAM, and PAL.


I hate to be so cynical, but the only case that I can think of where a major change in entertainment technology was implemented with minimal fuss was the move to the 88-108MHz FM, driven by audio enthusiasts, college radio stations, and non-profits. And even there, some very fine people were ruined financially and by reputation. But the standard is worldwide, mature, with only minor quirks in channel allocation and de-emphasis.

It's sort of interesting that very little is mentioned on these forums about Broadcast FM, either technically or in terms of programming. But it is the last refuge of regular classical and jazz programming, available for free, with minimal commercial irritations. And those beautiful old Marantz and Mcintosh tuners!

apg
 

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i have thought about this black screen before. seems to me that the combination of a polarized screen and a polarized lense would do the trick. didn't one of the screen makers do this once?


what if the screen and the pj were polarized vertically and you put filters on the lights in the room to polarize them horizontally?


greg


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Why does he shake hands with that guy right after he sexed the alligator
 

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Quote:
What about the new black screen ?
Do you have a link, or a thread on this?


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Alex
 

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I'm not sure whether to be encouraged by the entry of Sony, Toshiba, et al into the projector market. They are still setting their pricing based on a demographic of well-heeled HT enthusiasts. Joe Sixpack will go out and spend $1500 on a 50" Toshiba RPTV. This is Toshiba's market.


Why isn't their first FP DLP offering in the $2K-$3K range ? I wish I knew exactly what the light engines cost from TI -- or even the DMD since TI is trying to get out of the light-engine business and just make the chip. There is a lot less hardware involved in a DLP projector than in a CRT RPTV, and if Toshiba had the faith in their product they could create the market. They could order a production run of 20,000 lamps so people would not be put off by high replacement cost. They could offer retractable and fixed mount FP screens for less than $100.


Why doesn't Toshiba/Sony/JVC/Sharp do this ? Because they don't know the answer to Red Brian's question. They need to learn to deal with the advance of technology as the PC industry has.


I think that could mean building projectors as a component-based design. Allowing for people to upgrade the DMD chip, or lamp&power supply, or video-input and scaler module, or lenses. Maybe creating a market for third-party add-ons. But most importantly, having a design that they can improve every six months without a complete re-design. It is one answer to the obsolesence issue.




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*********************

Kirk Ellis

G1000 D-ILA, HTPC, Panamorph (soon I hope),

Dish 6000 (HBOHD,SHOHD,CBS,NBC,ABC,WB,FOX,UPN, KCET -- does it get any better ?)
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
*** OMG, AN OPEN SOURCE PROJECTOR! ***


Now that would be really cool (or really horrible, I'm not sure which). As a software engineer I think convergence would be fantastic, esp. with the software libraries available so that I could have uber control over my home theatre.


An intelligent TIVO that stores all my favorite episodes, sets the projector aspect modes, skips commercials and FBI warnings, has TV listings with reviews, pauses the show when the phone or doorbell rings, changes color tables based on what I'm watching (bluish tint for sci-fi, brownish for westerns), goes to cinema black mode at night, etc. Hell, I could even tweak it to wring every last drop of light out of my specific bundle of parts.


(Oh yeah, that Uber TIVO thing could be called a spouse. Maybe I'll have to get one of those someday http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
 
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