[recentrisk]

Guys I have a Sony 70 LCD (KDS-R70XBR2) and I am looking for a new set... Now that I have a 70 screen I cant go smaller. That being said it seems like I have 0 realistic options... as far as I know there no 70" sets from Sony (they have a 70" lcd for 19k, not realistic), samsung, toshiba, pioneer, etc


Is Mitsubishi the only company that carries a 70" set? and I am only really interested in their Laservue which is only is a 65" set.


Just to clarify I am looking at Rear Projection and Flat Panel sets...


Where are our big screens?


Rick

 

[ordo]



Quote:
Originally Posted by recentrisk /forum/post/16869845


Guys I have a Sony 70 LCD (KDS-R70XBR2) and I am looking for a new set... Now that I have a 70 screen I cant go smaller. That being said it seems like I have 0 realistic options... as far as I know there no 70" sets from Sony (they have a 70" lcd for 19k, not realistic), samsung, toshiba, pioneer, etc


Is Mitsubishi the only company that carries a 70" set? and I am only really interested in their Laservue which is only is a 65" set.


Just to clarify I am looking at Rear Projection and Flat Panel sets...


Where are our big screens?


Rick

Understood as late as the end of last year that several companies (both lcd and plasma co's) were comming out with 70 inch sizes. Then recently someone on one of the dlp threads stated that they had all decided against it given the bad market conditions. I too would have liked to have seen these. Too bad. Still according to the same dlp thread the new laservue's will be available in a 75 inch size. (yes not a 73 as the rest of mitsu's dlp lineup) Not only that they will be available in a 120 and 240hz versions. (sorry I do not have the exact site for you)


Two thing strike me about this. One being that the price has to be astronomical. The other is that the laservue's chip maker (Texas Instruments) has never released anything but their darkchip4 to anyone. I do know that they have such a chip that would allow a set to run at 120hz. (it is currently only used in theater projectors) Has anyone else heard this?? If so I assume the chip would be a great improvement. I believe Mitsu's "cinema smooth" feature compensates for the sets being 60hz.

 

[halsan40]



Quote:
Originally Posted by recentrisk /forum/post/16869845


Guys I have a Sony 70 LCD (KDS-R70XBR2) and I am looking for a new set... Now that I have a 70 screen I cant go smaller. That being said it seems like I have 0 realistic options... as far as I know there no 70" sets from Sony (they have a 70" lcd for 19k, not realistic), samsung, toshiba, pioneer, etc


Is Mitsubishi the only company that carries a 70" set? and I am only really interested in their Laservue which is only is a 65" set.


Just to clarify I am looking at Rear Projection and Flat Panel sets...


Where are our big screens?


Rick

Panasonic is coming out with a 92" (iirc) Plasma set. Only about 40K

I can't use front projection, but one day I would like to replace my excellent 70" JVC Pro just for a bigger picture. This upgradeitus is a curse

 

[ordo]



Quote:
Originally Posted by recentrisk /forum/post/16869845


Guys I have a Sony 70 LCD (KDS-R70XBR2) and I am looking for a new set... Now that I have a 70 screen I cant go smaller. That being said it seems like I have 0 realistic options... as far as I know there no 70" sets from Sony (they have a 70" lcd for 19k, not realistic), samsung, toshiba, pioneer, etc


Is Mitsubishi the only company that carries a 70" set? and I am only really interested in their Laservue which is only is a 65" set.


Just to clarify I am looking at Rear Projection and Flat Panel sets...


Where are our big screens?


Rick

Just remembered where I saw the info on the new Laservue's comming out soon. It was in the rear projection forums in the laservue specific one around post number 3993.

 

[recentrisk]



Quote:
Originally Posted by ordo /forum/post/16872035


Just remembered where I saw the info on the new Laservue's comming out soon. It was in the rear projection forums in the laservue specific one around post number 3993.

Yea I know they were planning on the 73" set but that seems to be on hold... but the other post above the guy says that was changed to a 75" laservue? Either way I would be interested. I am sure the price will be high so I will have to start saving now.

 

[recentrisk]

Also does anyone know if the Samsung LED TVs will be made in any larger sizes?

 

[Darin]

They won't even be made in the sizes they were previously made in.

 

[Darin]



Quote:
Originally Posted by ordo /forum/post/16871779


The other is that the laservue's chip maker (Texas Instruments) has never released anything but their darkchip4 to anyone. I do know that they have such a chip that would allow a set to run at 120hz. (it is currently only used in theater projectors) Has anyone else heard this?? If so I assume the chip would be a great improvement. I believe Mitsu's "cinema smooth" feature compensates for the sets being 60hz.

They've released lots of chips other than the DC4. There were several earlier generations. And there's nothing about the DC4 that can't run 120hz. In fact, I believe it could easily do 240hz.

 

[lcaillo]

Don't expect the Laservue in larger size until later this year. They will have a 67" and a 75" in the second generation sets.


Other than Mitsubishi, there are no current production choices for RPTV.

 

[walford]



Quote:
Originally Posted by recentrisk /forum/post/16874564


Also does anyone know if the Samsung LED TVs will be made in any larger sizes?

If you are referring to LED DLP models the answer is no, Samsung no longer makes any DLP models.

If you are referring to LCD models that use LED backlighting I don't think we will see any new larger models introduced before the 2010 models are first introduced at the 2010 CES show in January.

 

[egrady]



Quote:
Originally Posted by recentrisk /forum/post/16869845


Guys I have a Sony 70 LCD (KDS-R70XBR2) and I am looking for a new set... Now that I have a 70 screen I cant go smaller. That being said it seems like I have 0 realistic options... as far as I know there no 70" sets from Sony (they have a 70" lcd for 19k, not realistic), samsung, toshiba, pioneer, etc


Is Mitsubishi the only company that carries a 70" set? and I am only really interested in their Laservue which is only is a 65" set.


Just to clarify I am looking at Rear Projection and Flat Panel sets...


Where are our big screens?


Rick

As you know, the rest of the industry has abandoned the RPTV field to Mits. At present, realistic choices in a flat panel stop at 65". The first generation Laservue had issues, was very expensive and had a poor black level and contrast ratio as calibrated by UMR. You can check the threads on the Laservue here on AVS for more details. Whether it was a prototype, for a second generation set that will be a true bell ringer, remains to be seen. Personally, I'm very sceptical about it.


If you don't want to consider one of the new lamp based sets by Mits you really don't have any choices. If your Sony is still working fine, well I wouldn't replace it with a lamp based Mits dlp either. I was in a very similar situation a few months ago and was very frustrated. My conclusion was the only set that really tempted me was the Elite 151. But, I simply wasn't prepared to go smaller either. So, by default, I went with a JVC RS20. The cost of my FP, coupled with a Carada 88" screen, was actually less than the list price of the Laservue. Also, I said goodbye to geometry problems, overscan and poor black levels. In addition, getting rid of the big box between my front speakers helped my two channel audio quite a bit as well.


As I'm sure you know, FP requires the right room and the ability to control ambient light. If FP is not an option for you my suggestion is to sit tight. Your Sony is a very good RPTV and should be an acceptable bridge until the Laservue or larger flat panels become a viable option.

 

[ordo]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin /forum/post/16874618


They've released lots of chips other than the DC4. There were several earlier generations. And there's nothing about the DC4 that can't run 120hz. In fact, I believe it could easily do 240hz.

O.K. I'll bite. How does this work. I thought that Mitsu would not go through all of this "cinema smooth" stuff to reduce problems in motion if they could run their current chip at 120 or 240hz. So like a dummy I assumed it was the chip. Help me understand what's going on...

 

[Darin]

Well first, as far as their rear projectors go, the chip is already operating at 120hz. It only contains half of the pixels necessary to paint a full frame, so it has to do double-time just to render 1920x1080x60hz. The other issue is that DMD isn't the only device in the chain that limits the framerate. To do 120hz (240hz for a wobulated DMD) the wobulation mirror would have to operate at 120hz, and the image processing electronics would have to be re-worked for higher speed. They would also have to be capable of operating at two speeds to remain 3D capable, since LCD shutter glasses may not be capable of switching at 240hz. I can't tell you specifically what the biggest hurdle is for not moving to 120/240hz faster, but I can tell you that the current generation DMDs can switch very fast. According to this post , 30,000 times per second. You have to divide that by the number of colors the set uses, then by 2 if it uses wobulation. But that still leaves plenty of room for framerate improvement. Another thing to keep in mind is that modern DLPs already "paint" each frame (or sub-frame in the case of modulation) multiple times (2-3 times for wheel based systems, maybe more for others), to reduce rainbow effect. It will cycle through all the colors, then just paint them again (and maybe again) just so the color switching is fast enough that your eyes can't perceive it. So in essence, the DMD is already doing the equivalent of 240hz, or maybe even faster. The DMD is not the bottleneck as far as speed goes.

 

[ordo]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin /forum/post/16876744


Well first, as far as their rear projectors go, the chip is already operating at 120hz. It only contains half of the pixels necessary to paint a full frame, so it has to do double-time just to render 1920x1080x60hz. The other issue is that DMD isn't the only device in the chain that limits the framerate. To do 120hz (240hz for a wobulated DMD) the wobulation mirror would have to operate at 120hz, and the image processing electronics would have to be re-worked for higher speed. They would also have to be capable of operating at two speeds to remain 3D capable, since LCD shutter glasses may not be capable of switching at 240hz. I can't tell you specifically what the biggest hurdle is for not moving to 120/240hz faster, but I can tell you that the current generation DMDs can switch very fast. According to this post , 30,000 times per second. You have to divide that by the number of colors the set uses, then by 2 if it uses wobulation. But that still leaves plenty of room for framerate improvement. Another thing to keep in mind is that modern DLPs already "paint" each frame (or sub-frame in the case of modulation) multiple times (2-3 times for wheel based systems, maybe more for others), to reduce rainbow effect. It will cycle through all the colors, then just paint them again (and maybe again) just so the color switching is fast enough that your eyes can't perceive it. So in essence, the DMD is already doing the equivalent of 240hz, or maybe even faster. The DMD is not the bottleneck as far as speed goes.

Avsforum (laservue section) claims that the new generation sets will have two versions. (one a 120hz and the "higher" one a 240hz) If so, has Mitsu eliminated the bottleneck you mentioned, or is it just that the lack of a color wheel gives them all of the benefits without changing much else. Also, are the bulb sets doomed (because of price or the dreaded "color wheel) never to give us these higher rates?

 

[Darin]

I didn't mean to suggest that there IS a specific bottleneck, only that the DMD isn't one. The lack of holding out for higher framerates could simply be the desire to hold new features to have something to market next year. It's not always that it's technically impossible to provide something better, it's just not always profitable. Companies try to standardize as much as possible. They want to milk their existing technology as much as possible before investing in something new. Then they offer the "new" feature as a premium offering for more $$, then ultimately make it the new standard. Just like things like "smooth120"... it's not that they couldn't provide it in all the units, they just first try to get people to pay a premium for it before offering it in the "standard" units.


I would expect that wheel based sets technically could operate at higher framerate... as I said, they currently run each color through a couple of passes to reduce rainbow effect. Instead of painting the colors twice for one frame, they could paint them once but double the framerate without changing wheel speed or color segments on a wheel. The colors would still be changing just as fast, so it wouldn't cause more RBE. But personally, I'd expect to see the bulb based sets to remain fairly stagnant, while they put the premium features in the laser sets to lure the higher end customers there. Again, not because they can't put it in a wheel based sense, but because it makes more sense not to from a financial perspective.


But that's all conjecture on my part.

 

[recentrisk]



Quote:
Originally Posted by walford /forum/post/16874703


If you are referring to LED DLP models the answer is no, Samsung no longer makes any DLP models.

If you are referring to LCD models that use LED backlighting I don't think we will see any new larger models introduced before the 2010 models are first introduced at the 2010 CES show in January.

I was talking about the LCD w/ LED backlight, which they call LED TV. Hopefully they will introduce a larger model in January.

 

[recentrisk]



Quote:
Originally Posted by egrady /forum/post/16875192


As you know, the rest of the industry has abandoned the RPTV field to Mits. At present, realistic choices in a flat panel stop at 65". The first generation Laservue had issues, was very expensive and had a poor black level and contrast ratio as calibrated by UMR. You can check the threads on the Laservue here on AVS for more details. Whether it was a prototype, for a second generation set that will be a true bell ringer, remains to be seen. Personally, I'm very sceptical about it.


If you don't want to consider one of the new lamp based sets by Mits you really don't have any choices. If your Sony is still working fine, well I wouldn't replace it with a lamp based Mits dlp either. I was in a very similar situation a few months ago and was very frustrated. My conclusion was the only set that really tempted me was the Elite 151. But, I simply wasn't prepared to go smaller either. So, by default, I went with a JVC RS20. The cost of my FP, coupled with a Carada 88" screen, was actually less than the list price of the Laservue. Also, I said goodbye to geometry problems, overscan and poor black levels. In addition, getting rid of the big box between my front speakers helped my two channel audio quite a bit as well.


As I'm sure you know, FP requires the right room and the ability to control ambient light. If FP is not an option for you my suggestion is to sit tight. Your Sony is a very good RPTV and should be an acceptable bridge until the Laservue or larger flat panels become a viable option.

Yes FP is not an option for me due to light... I guess I will wait patiently =)

 

[ordo]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin /forum/post/16874618


They've released lots of chips other than the DC4. There were several earlier generations. And there's nothing about the DC4 that can't run 120hz. In fact, I believe it could easily do 240hz.

Yeah, I actually did know about the dc2 and dc3's. What I should have more clearly stated was that I was referring to chips used in theater projectors which are "true" (for lack of a better word) 1080p chips. (seans wobulation) I don't know if they are called a dc5 or what but they put three of them in digital cinema theaters projectors.


My tought was that maby these were the chips they were intending on using in the latest version of the Laservue since they claimed 120hz and 240hz capability. What do you think? As I understand it these new sets are 3-D capable and I wonder how this all fits in with your recent comments about the dc4 chip and the glasses with shutters.

 

[Darin]



Quote:
Originally Posted by ordo /forum/post/16884600


My tought was that maby these were the chips they were intending on using in the latest version of the Laservue since they claimed 120hz and 240hz capability. What do you think?

I don't know, but I doubt it. There are two separate issues there: using 3 chips instead of one, and using a full 1920x1080 chip instead of the wobulated 960x1080 chip. Using 3 chips gets rid of the color wheel and eliminates the possibility of RBE, but introduces the possibility of mis-convergence. Using lasers also eliminates the wheel, and switching them faster reduces the chances of people being able to detect RBE, so there's just not much benefit there. Using a full 1920x1080 chip is certainly a possibility, there are pros & cons of wobulation. Though it does seem to me that the wobulation mirror could actually help reduce sparklies due to laser light coherence, but I could be wrong.


It's hard to guess what they'll do (or if Laservue will last long enough for any of this to get that far), but based on the data available it doesn't appear that they would need to do any of that to increase the refresh rate. The DMD appears to have plenty of speed headroom as it is.