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Where can I put my left surround speaker in my small 5.1.2 setup?

2403 Views 18 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  Ryan Statz, 
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Hi everyone!

I am about to remodel my newly purchased NYC condo, and would love to come up with an interior design that supports the best possible movie watching setup in our living room, given the constraints that come with limited space and the fact that this ultimately is – well – a living room and not a home theater.

I'll likely go for a projector in the $2000 range (maybe the Epson Home Cinema 4010?), an electric 120" screen, an Atmos-compatible AVR (currently I have the Sony STR-DN1080 which I might keep using), and a Klipsch setup like this one hopefully totalling no more than $3000 for speakers. Based on some research I'm thinking of going for a 5.1.2 setup, given that .2 is relatively easy to add by putting RP-500SAs on top of the towers. I could potentially add ceiling speakers instead/additionally of the RP-500SA but I'm not sure how much it would add.

My biggest issue is there isn't really a good place for the rear left surround speaker.

Here is the living room layout:


The orange boxes represent all the 5.1 speakers, the green box represents my upright piano, and the red lines represent the recommended angles in Dolby's 5.1.2 setup guide. The solid black boxes are load-bearing and hence not movable.

There isn't really a viable position for the left surround speaker given those constraints. I briefly discussed with my wife the option of mounting it on one of the walls within the red cone, but understandably this area is off-limits because those are walkways. The best solution I could come up so far is to place it next to the piano (where it is in the above illustration), but this leads (a) to an asymmetric setup which I hope the AVR can correct for, and (b) to a setup way outside the recommended angles. An alternative would be to choose surround speaker positions that are within Dolby's recommended cones, but ceiling mount them instead of having them at ear height. Neither solution seems optimal.

My questions:
1) Am I missing anything else I could do for the left surround speaker? Of the two suboptimal solutions (asymmetry vs. ceiling mount), which one seems less daunting?
2) Is there any reason I should consider getting ceiling mounted Atmos speakers rather than just going with a reflective setup, putting RP-500SAs on top of the tower speakesr? I don't feel super strongly about this and could probably make either option work.

Many thanks!
Dominik

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How tall and what type of ceilings? Ceiling mount/flush mount is a far superior choice for Atmos, especially if you are there for the long-term. The Atmos bounce effect, at least when I experimented with it, is unsatisfying. As far as surrounds, could you possibly consider smaller module type speakers (unobtrusive, even "attractive") on end tables flanking the sofa? And congratulations on finding what appears to be a spacious condo in NYC!

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk
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Thanks Dargent0628! The ceiling is 8'1", and I guess I'm not sure about the material. It's all white painted and a flat surface, but I haven't tried knocking on it (and we are still closing, so I can't try just yet – but we are looking into remodeling in parallel).

The idea of using smaller speakers on flank tables near the sofa is interesting. I hadn't really considered this so far because I thought all those speaker systems are matched with each other (i.e. I should combine a Klipsch RP-8000F tower pair with a Klipsch RP-600M surround pair, just like suggested on their website). But it sounds like you might be suggesting using speakers from a different brand? Might you have any specific suggestions, and advice on how to find out whether those would go well with the other Klipsch speakers in the setup?

Thanks again!
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Ryan Statz
dpkay said:
Thanks Dargent0628! The ceiling is 8'1", and I guess I'm not sure about the material. It's all white painted and a flat surface, but I haven't tried knocking on it (and we are still closing, so I can't try just yet – but we are looking into remodeling in parallel).

The idea of using smaller speakers on flank tables near the sofa is interesting. I hadn't really considered this so far because I thought all those speaker systems are matched with each other (i.e. I should combine a Klipsch RP-8000F tower pair with a Klipsch RP-600M surround pair, just like suggested on their website). But it sounds like you might be suggesting using speakers from a different brand? Might you have any specific suggestions, and advice on how to find out whether those would go well with the other Klipsch speakers in the setup?

Thanks again!
Click to expand...
I might suggest possibly having the surrounds on speaker stands flanking the sofa/couch (either facing perpendicular to the listening position or slightly behind the couch/sofa, and pointed towards the listening position) rather than having them on end tables, but go with whatever suits the space or creates the least amount obstruction. Most of the recommended information regarding surround placement says to have your surrounds situated 1 - 2 feet above ear level to get the best effects (which is why I would go with stands vs. end tables), but not all rooms can accommodate that.

There's no rule stating that all of your speakers have to be from the same brand/family, particularly when it comes to surrounds (for example, I have Polk RTi A1's and CSi A4 as my front stage, and a pair of Klipsch R-14M's as my surrounds). It's often recommended that your front stage (LCR) are from the same line so as to timbre match, but even that's not a hard fast rule. Feel free to stick with Klipsch for your surrounds, though - the 600M's seem to be nice speakers (and I haven't seen anyone here complain about them?). You could look into some of their smaller bookshelves, too.

Here's some decent info on speaker placement: https://www.crutchfield.ca/S-aq00dGbkUFk/learn/learningcenter/home/speaker_placement.html
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dpkay said:
Thanks Dargent0628! The ceiling is 8'1", and I guess I'm not sure about the material. It's all white painted and a flat surface, but I haven't tried knocking on it (and we are still closing, so I can't try just yet – but we are looking into remodeling in parallel).



The idea of using smaller speakers on flank tables near the sofa is interesting. I hadn't really considered this so far because I thought all those speaker systems are matched with each other (i.e. I should combine a Klipsch RP-8000F tower pair with a Klipsch RP-600M surround pair, just like suggested on their website). But it sounds like you might be suggesting using speakers from a different brand? Might you have any specific suggestions, and advice on how to find out whether those would go well with the other Klipsch speakers in the setup?



Thanks again!
Click to expand...
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-ohsPn...DZhiTMvIO4QP5_QHpSR-h17mAQtmpUqBoCPT0QAvD_BwE

I was thinking along these lines...

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk
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gajCA
dpkay said:
Many thanks!
Dominik
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In my 5.1 setup my rears are not in the recommended Dolby position and they work just fine.

I'd just place the right rear directly across from the "compromised" position of the left rear and call it a day.

If possible go in ceiling and if possible go 5.1.4 vs 5.1.2.
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RayGuy
Seems to me the "load bearing" black box that is situated partially inside the Dolby angle for the left rear is the appropriate spot. You will have to play with positioning to be sure the walkway is not blocked. To that end, you may need to use flat speakers, such as the KEF T101 or similar. Alternatively, if there is some hollow wall space to use (you could plan for this in your design), install in-wall speakers.
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gajCA said:
If possible go in ceiling and if possible go 5.1.4 vs 5.1.2.
Click to expand...
Thanks gajCA. I can do that, but I'll likely have to go with something cheaper and smaller such as the Polk RC60i. Would that be preferable to two bigger Klipsch speakers? Also, none of them seems to mention Atmos. Can I just go with *any* decently reviewed ceiling speaker to complement my Klipsch LCR?

RayGuy said:
Seems to me the "load bearing" black box that is situated partially inside the Dolby angle for the left rear is the appropriate spot. You will have to play with positioning to be sure the walkway is not blocked. To that end, you may need to use flat speakers, such as the KEF T101 or similar. Alternatively, if there is some hollow wall space to use (you could plan for this in your design), install in-wall speakers.
Click to expand...
That is very interesting. Thanks for the recommendation, RayGuy. If I mount those flat speakers at the wall, though, they won't be angled toward the listener due to the orientation of the black box. They'll either be angled toward the screen or toward the window. In fact, the right surround might be angled toward the viewer, and the left surround might be angled toward the screen (so, 90 degrees off). I assume this wouldn't be too great?

HTML:
Dargent0628 said:
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-ohsPn...DZhiTMvIO4QP5_QHpSR-h17mAQtmpUqBoCPT0QAvD_BwE
Click to expand...
Thanks for the recommendation! Those look awesome as well, and my wife might be able to get behind it. :)
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RayGuy
dpkay said:
They'll either be angled toward the screen or toward the window. In fact, the right surround might be angled toward the viewer, and the left surround might be angled toward the screen (so, 90 degrees off). I assume this wouldn't be too great?
Click to expand...
They would need to be mounted so they face each other, with the couch slightly forward of them both. Given the distance from the speakers to the couch, I doubt you will have any problems with the sound, as it radiates outward with distance. If you are really concerned, then look at the Totem Kin Mini Flex, with a built-in 15 degree angle which can be aimed at the couch.
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T
I saw this not so long ago and was impressed.

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gajCA
dpkay said:
Thanks gajCA. I can do that, but I'll likely have to go with something cheaper and smaller such as the Polk RC60i. Would that be preferable to two bigger Klipsch speakers? Also, none of them seems to mention Atmos. Can I just go with *any* decently reviewed ceiling speaker to complement my Klipsch LCR?
Click to expand...
Recently several Atmos proponents on AVS have suggested that there is little need to get anything much better than those Polks for in ceiling Atmos.

Yes, any in ceiling speaker should do as most have wide dispersion which is all that is needed.

If for some reason you come across a narrow dispersion in ceiling, (haven't run across one yet), that would be one to avoid.

I'd get the Polks.
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D
Great! Here is an updated schematic, incorporating the KEF T101 and Polk RC60i – the KEF T101 now leaves us a lot more options since we don't need to worry about walkways anymore (thanks, Rayguy!):


RayGuy said:
They would need to be mounted so they face each other, with the couch slightly forward of them both. Given the distance from the speakers to the couch, I doubt you will have any problems with the sound, as it radiates outward with distance.
Click to expand...
What do you think about the five options above? There are pros and cons:
  • (c) and (d) are in the middle of the Dolby-recommended cone, but with (c) I'm not sure whether the black pillar between the speaker and the listener will affect the sound. With (d) we don't have that issue, but the speaker is 90 degrees off from the right surround speaker.
  • (e) doesn't have either of these problems, but may be too close to the couch compared to the right surround speaker? (And also too far back according to the Dolby angles)
  • (b) still has the pillar partially in the way, which I'm not sure whether it matters.
  • (a) is least intrusive to walkways, but I don't think I have to worry about that with the T101

gajCA said:
Yes, any in ceiling speaker should do as most have wide dispersion which is all that is needed.

If for some reason you come across a narrow dispersion in ceiling, (haven't run across one yet), that would be one to avoid.

I'd get the Polks.
Click to expand...
Okay, I think I can do that. The only thing is that the rear two Atmos speakers won't be quite as far back as the Dolby instructions recommend – but I assume that's still better than 5.1.2?

Many thanks again!
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Ryan Statz
dpkay said:
Great! Here is an updated schematic, incorporating the KEF T101 and Polk RC60i – the KEF T101 now leaves us a lot more options since we don't need to worry about walkways anymore (thanks, Rayguy!):




What do you think about the five options above? There are pros and cons:
  • (c) and (d) are in the middle of the Dolby-recommended cone, but with (c) I'm not sure whether the black pillar between the speaker and the listener will affect the sound. With (d) we don't have that issue, but the speaker is 90 degrees off from the right surround speaker.
  • (e) doesn't have either of these problems, but may be too close to the couch compared to the right surround speaker? (And also too far back according to the Dolby angles)
  • (b) still has the pillar partially in the way, which I'm not sure whether it matters.
  • (a) is least intrusive to walkways, but I don't think I have to worry about that with the T101
Click to expand...
I would go with D.
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RayGuy
"e", and have the opposite side speaker as close to the same angle as possible ("e" as far forward as possible and the opposite speaker as far back as possible). The slight difference in distance and angle should not be an issue, as the receiver will compensate for the timing. Rooms force compromises on us, and this one is pretty minor, assuming the speakers you choose have reasonably good dispersion characteristics.

Another possible option with good horizontal dispersion would be the Golden Ear Supersat 3.

https://www.goldenear.com/products/supersat-series
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D
Thanks for the replies suggesting (d) and (e). If both of them have the potential of working, I'm inclined to go with (e), especially since I just realized that this will give us decent coverage for playing stereo music at the dining table as a side effect. Here it is in 3D, with both speakers at the exact same latitude:


RayGuy said:
Another possible option with good horizontal dispersion would be the Golden Ear Supersat 3.

https://www.goldenear.com/products/supersat-series
Click to expand...
Thanks! Would the difference be significant, you think? Price wise it doesn't seem to be a huge difference but they do seem bigger, so I'm inclined to go with the flatter speakers to optimize walkways.
(Also, my wife just approved the KEF T101 as I was typing this post!)
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RayGuy
dpkay said:
Thanks for the replies suggesting (d) and (e). If both of them have the potential of working, I'm inclined to go with (e), especially since I just realized that this will give us decent coverage for playing stereo music at the dining table as a side effect. Here it is in 3D, with both speakers at the exact same latitude:




Thanks! Would the difference be significant, you think? Price wise it doesn't seem to be a huge difference but they do seem bigger, so I'm inclined to go with the flatter speakers to optimize walkways.
(Also, my wife just approved the KEF T101 as I was typing this post!)
Click to expand...
All of the three options are of good quality, so choose what seems to work best. Most speakers have good dispersion up to 30 degrees off axis. Do the calculation from those speaker positions to your seated ears, if you are within that angle of dispersion, pretty much any speaker will be just fine. If you are significantly outside that angle (don't think that will be the case), then looking to implement a speaker with wider dispersion may be in order.

BTW, the T101 requires a 120 Hz crossover point (per Kef customer support), to protect the speaker from being overdriven. That's the compromise you have to make for a speaker this thin. Your sub will need to have good output to about 150 Hz to cover the crossover range.
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gajCA
dpkay said:
Okay, I think I can do that. The only thing is that the rear two Atmos speakers won't be quite as far back as the Dolby instructions recommend – but I assume that's still better than 5.1.2?
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I think you will be fine.
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Many thanks again. We will go ahead and design the rest of the space around the constraints derived here. I'd imagine we'll be working on this project for quite a few months, but I'll make sure to post photos once we are done. :)
I am super impressed by the knowledge and willingness to help of this community.
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Ryan Statz
dpkay said:
Many thanks again. We will go ahead and design the rest of the space around the constraints derived here. I'd imagine we'll be working on this project for quite a few months, but I'll make sure to post photos once we are done. :)
I am super impressed by the knowledge and willingness to help of this community.
Click to expand...
This is truly a great community, and it's always been very helpful, kind, and patient (lord knows I've asked some pretty dumb questions here). I've not always taken the suggestions I've received, but have always appreciated their generosity in offering their opinions.
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