[bd2003]

Don't worry, not a troll post about how they're doomed, not about hardware, sales, etc....an issue of genuine concern.


It feels like a very, very long time since Nintendo has come up with a genuinely new IP, and they're becoming less daring as each year passes. The last one I can think of is Pikmin, from 2001. Maybe Professor Layton, from 2007ish....although its hardly a heavy hitter. Golden sun, maybe? It's well over a decade since they had a new game IP that really stuck. There was Wii Sports.....but they can't really build on it with the Wii U due to the gamepad.


For the past few years we've seen countless remakes - OoT, SF64 - wind waker upcoming. No shortage of 2.5d reimagining of classic games - other M, 3 NSMBs, DKCR, now LttP-2 and a new Yoshi's island. Every platform gets its own Mario party, kart, and 3-5 Mario sports. I've lost count of all the spinoffs - Paper Mario, Mario RPGs, Minis, Wario Ware. Every now and then they'll squeeze out another of the lesser franchises, like pilotwings or luigi's mansion.


I dont necessarily have a problem with these releases - except its no longer the case that they are happening beside the new ideas. Its all that seems to be left, and they're churning out what feels like the equivalent of straight to DVD releases at this point. They haven't even tried to launch a new IP with either the 3DS or Wii U, and launches have always been that golden opportunity.


So what's happening here? Is their deck so stacked that there's not even room for new IPs? Are they reading the market right, is this all people want from Nintendo? What happened to the Nintendo that actually came up with these ideas when they were new, instead of just mining the past? If they could come up with Pokemon - they could have came up with something like skylanders....but they just haven't been trying.


I've always heard the comparison of Mario as this generations Mickey Mouse - but Disney stopped making Mickey Mouse movies a long time ago - they moved on and kept creating new characters. Now Pixar is constantly churning out new IPs with lovable characters, and they rarely even revisit them. So....why not Nintendo too? Maybe they need a leadership change, or an acquisition with some fresh new ideas? They can't ride on their legacy forever....or can they?

 

[darklordjames]

"For the past few years we've seen countless remakes"


Nintendo was remaking NES games for the SNES. This is nothing new and not at any higher of a percentage of released product than every generation before it.



"They haven't even tried to launch a new IP with either the 3DS or Wii U"


Lego City Undercover. Nintendoland. Sing. Wonderful 101. That is in the first five months of the Wii U's life, or roughly one new IP per month. I'm not even going to bother listing for 3DS, as it's obvious that your assertion is ridiculous. For a post that starts out with the line "not trolling!!!1", that sure looks like a pretty troll statement to me.



Your argument really comes down to "Why are there so many movies with Brad Pitt in them?!? Does Hollywood have no new ideas?". You complain about the same characters showing up in games, then ignore that the variety of games is drastically different. Yes, Mario is in Mario Kart 7 and New Super Mario U, two very different titles. Brad Pitt is in Seven and Seven Years In Tibet, two very different films. Just as those two games are refinements on what came before them, the films are also obvious extensions of their precursors.


My point? The problem is not on Nintendo's end. They are doing exactly what they have done for the last 30 years, at an excellent level of quality. The problem may very well be that their games just aren't for you anymore. That's fine. Just don't confuse the two.

 

[bd2003]

I'd hardly consider Lego anything a new IP at this point, even if Nintendo is publishing. A karaoke game barely even qualifies as a game. Nintendoland was just capitalizing on existing IP. Wonderful 101 certainly qualifies....but it's still MIA and missed the "launch window".


Mario might make an appearance in drastically different games - but the models for these games (kart, party, smash bros, sports)....go back decades themselves.


The only new first party game I can think of for the 3ds that wasnt a remake or a sequel was steel diver....and I just don't see the sticking power for that one. Kid Icarus uprising could have been something entirely new....but they pulled pit out of cryo sleep for it.


At no point did I even mention that these games aren't for me. Id just like to see this stuff on top of some genuinely new characters and ideas. I don't doubt there are many that are absolutely fine with the status quo. But ask yourself this....who have they created in the past decade that's worthy of inclusion in smash bros, to stand aside mario?

 

[ThisOneKidMongo]

I have to admit that when I was typing up the games covered in yesterday's Nintendo Direct, it did occur to me that I typed "Mario" like seven times. But sequelitis and franchise milking is hardly something exclusive to Nintendo (or even just the gaming industry). It's just that they've been at it longer and are more successful at it than most. I mean, look at the number of Uncharted, Halo, God of War, Assassin's Creed, Resident Evil games, etc. we've gotten in a comparatively short amount of time. But again, you can't really blame them too much. It's unfortunate, but proven franchises sell, so why take a risk on a new IP?


Also, you're kind of trying to have it both ways in saying they don't have any new franchises. Layton, Steel Diver, Wii Sports (hell, Miis in general), Wonderful 101, Flingsmash, Nintendogs, arguably ExciteTruck/Bots are all definitely new (recent-ish) IP, but then you just hand-wave them away for various reasons. You can't say they don't count because they're not successful enough (which, btw, is ridiculous to say in Layton's case at least) or not out yet, or whatever. So which is it you mean, exactly -- new franchises, or new *MEGA-SUCCESSFUL* franchises? If it's the former, you're wrong, and if it's the latter, you kinda proved my other earlier point: New stuff don't sell as well as sequels.


Keep in mind, it's not like I'm completely not on board with what you're saying. I'd like them to lean a bit less on the usual stuff, too (I still think a rated-Teen, sci-fi shooter IP would be very good for them). Frankly I'm happy when they just revive relatively dormant stuff like Kid Icarus or Punch-Out -- and where the hell are my console Starfox and F-Zero games? But that's just how the industry is. Know what's gonna save the Wii U, if anything? A fuuuuuuuuckload of core Nintendo franchises.

 

[bd2003]

To the extent that I'm riding the fence is because I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, LttP-II makes my inner fanboy weep with joy. I'd probably still put Yoshi's Island in my top 5 of all time - I'd never say no to that. I'm generally pro-sequel, as long as the first game justifies it and the sequels are made with care.


But I need my comfort sequels balanced out with something new. Something good enough to spawn its own sequels. Perhaps its not fair to dismiss Layton, but Layton is the only Nintendo IP from the last decade I can think of that fits that description. Most of the rest of the industry's other sequel farms are relatively recent compared to Nintendo's. Maybe a truckload of core Nintendo franchises will prop their consoles up for the time being....but that well has to run dry eventually.


The A-list franchises (Mario, Zelda, Metroid) rarely feel stale....but it feels like they're pimping them out to the spinoffs and paint jobs a little too frequently now. It's the B and C list like Star Fox, F-Zero, Pilotwings, Kirby, etc....that list should be growing, not shrinking. Of those 3DS games announced yesterday, not a single one steps outside their comfort zone. Id like to see them put their weight behind one solid attempt each year that doesn't include a single recognizable name. I'm talking full blown game with a real budget, not something tiny like pushmo. Maybe they miss 4 out of 5 times....but that one hit will carry forward for another decade.

 

[voodoozen]



Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisOneKidMongo  /t/1468764/where-has-nintendos-creativity-gone#post_23217649


It's just that they've been at it longer and are more successful at it than most. I mean, look at the number of Uncharted, Halo, God of War, Assassin's Creed, Resident Evil games, etc. we've gotten in a comparatively short amount of time. But again, you can't really blame them too much. It's unfortunate, but proven franchises sell, so why take a risk on a new IP?

Mario-itis is the problem, IMO.


If Ninty could just cool it with the "Mushroom Kingdom, Every Console, All The Time!" formula we'd all be talking about this a lot differently. Looking back at it now, Wii had a great run, and wasn't really so over-saturated with Mario. 3rd party games didn't get the same sales or reception as the Nintendo titles, but there were enough games out there that contrasted the N franchises... Heck, out of the 15 games they showed us for 3DS yesterday 5 of them had Mario in there.


Wikipedia lists15 "Mario" branded games for Wii (16 with SSBB) and 9 for DS... meanwhile, there were 19 Lego games for those two consoles in the same period of time (and I'd argue those are FAR worse tripe than anything Nintendo has done recently). If you count all the announcements, there's already like 5 Mario games for Wii U (I didn't bother looking those up) out of maybe what, 75 total games? Take out ports from PS360 and the list gets even more condensed with Mario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisOneKidMongo  /t/1468764/where-has-nintendos-creativity-gone#post_23217649


Keep in mind, it's not like I'm completely not on board with what you're saying. I'd like them to lean a bit less on the usual stuff, too (I still think a rated-Teen, sci-fi shooter IP would be very good for them). Frankly I'm happy when they just revive relatively dormant stuff like Kid Icarus or Punch-Out -- and where the hell are my console Starfox and F-Zero games? But that's just how the industry is.

Bingo. Retreading your old brands like WW and SmashU will move units like gangbusters, but it's is stopping the leadership from moving on games like (a real) Metroid, F-Zero, 1080 Snowboarding, (new) Starfox, Eternal Darkness, Star Tropics, Wave Race... the list goes on and on







Dammit, now I made myself sad. We'll never get SNES/N64 levels of new IP's and innovation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003  /t/1468764/where-has-nintendos-creativity-gone#post_23217812


But I need my comfort sequels balanced out with something new. Something good enough to spawn its own sequels.


The A-list franchises (Mario, Zelda, Metroid) rarely feel stale....but it feels like they're pimping them out to the spinoffs and paint jobs a little too frequently now. It's the B and C list like Star Fox, F-Zero, Pilotwings, Kirby, etc....that list should be growing, not shrinking. Of those 3DS games announced yesterday, not a single one steps outside their comfort zone. Id like to see them put their weight behind one solid attempt each year that doesn't include a single recognizable name. I'm talking full blown game with a real budget, not something tiny like pushmo. Maybe they miss 4 out of 5 times....but that one hit will carry forward for another decade.

all good points

 

[bd2003]

The mainline Mario games have also gone from a twice a decade occurrence in the 90s/early 2000s to nearly biannual. I'm definitely suffering from Mario fatigue, but they're going to have to continue to rely on him until they can come up with new franchises to fill the gaps.


1985 - SMB

1988 - SMB 2

1989 - SML

1990 - SMB 3

1991 - SMW

1992 - SML2

1996 - M64

2002 - SMS

2006 - NSMB

2007 - SMG

2009 - NSMB wii

2010 - SMG 2

2011 - SM3DL

2012 - NSMB Wii U + NSMB 2

2013 - NSLU + potential New SMB for Wii U

 

[moothemagiccow]

I don't really associate building a new brand with creativity. I doubt it would make a difference if it were Captain Toast's Galaxy and you were a guy with a head made of toast rather than mario, and you had to rescue your sister, Lil Miss Bacon, from the Butter Baron. The game would still be fun. You see a lot of indie games like this, where you could cut and paste anyone into the main role. I don't see that as creative. I see new gameplay concepts as creative, and that looked like what was on display in Zelda 3ds.


Mickey Mouse is a poor example. Mickey Mouse is a drawing. That's how I feel about Mario. He's a template. For the most part, the plot doesn't matter.

 

[darklordjames]

"2013 - NSLU + potential New SMB for Wii U"


NSLU is DLC. "potential New SMB for Wii U" isn't a game that exists except inside your head. You are also missing a ton of earlier titles from your list. You have specifically cherry picked and skewed your list in an effort to make it fit your predetermined narrative.


Dishonest post is dishonest.

 

[jhoff80]



Quote:
I still think a rated-Teen, sci-fi shooter IP would be very good for them.

I know that this is really the opposite of what this post is about, but man, put it in the Metroid universe, and that could be really interesting. I know there was Metroid Prime Hunters for the DS, but even that game mostly starred Samus. We saw armies in Prime 3, you could easily have a more traditional FPS involving that sort of thing and still tie it into the same universe. I mean, while they haven't fleshed out too much of the universe other than a few planets along the way (since each game is pretty confined to a single planet or rarely a group of planets), they could still easily do some sort of Halo ODST style game that way.

 

[bd2003]



Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames  /t/1468764/where-has-nintendos-creativity-gone#post_23219142


"2013 - NSLU + potential New SMB for Wii U"


NSLU is DLC. "potential New SMB for Wii U" isn't a game that exists except inside your head. You are also missing a ton of earlier titles from your list. You have specifically cherry picked and skewed your list in an effort to make it fit your predetermined narrative.


Dishonest post is dishonest.

NSLU is DLC that they're positioning as basically having a full game's content. Whether or not its a retail release, it contributes to Mario fatigue.


And I far from cherry picked. Quite the opposite. I tried to keep it sane by only including platformers starring mario in the traditional 2D or newish 3D style. What did I leave out? Start with SMW2:YI - I add that in, and then Yoshi's island DS and this years Yoshi's island are on the table. 2013 gets far more crowded, would have made my point stronger. Yoshi's story and yarn yoshi are then debatable as well. If I put in SML3, then every wario land game is on the table. And then if we're digging that deep into spinoffs, every DKC is on the table (which basically exchanges DK for Mario and coins for bananas). Also super princess peach too.


However you want to slice the list, 2012 and 2013 are overflowing with Mario or Mario derivatives.

 

[bd2003]



Quote:
Originally Posted by moothemagiccow  /t/1468764/where-has-nintendos-creativity-gone#post_23219138


I don't really associate building a new brand with creativity. I doubt it would make a difference if it were Captain Toast's Galaxy and you were a guy with a head made of toast rather than mario, and you had to rescue your sister, Lil Miss Bacon, from the Butter Baron. The game would still be fun. You see a lot of indie games like this, where you could cut and paste anyone into the main role. I don't see that as creative. I see new gameplay concepts as creative, and that looked like what was on display in Zelda 3ds.


Mickey Mouse is a poor example. Mickey Mouse is a drawing. That's how I feel about Mario. He's a template. For the most part, the plot doesn't matter.

This is true - but the brand/characters have associations that they can't leave behind. Mario has to be able stomp things and break blocks with his head. Link has a sword, shield, boomerang etc....and it's going to have dungeons and an overworld. Samus will shoot stuff with her gun arm, lose her power ups in an early fight, etc....


Overly relying on the same characters and franchises has absolutely held back the gameplay concepts they're able to explore with their big games. Especially when every time they stray too far, like getting out of the ship in starfox assault....there's a backlash, or the game doesn't turn out well.

 

[jwebb1970]

"When you cover a hit song, you are already halfway there" - David Lee Roth.


Nintendo took Diamond Dave's quote to heart long ago. So far, it has generated fairly substantial sums of $$ for them. Until the next Mario or Zelda game completely bombs, expect the continued mining of the Big N's classic franchises.

 

[Monger]

 via Gamespot

Quote:
During the latest Nintendo Direct presentation yesterday, the Japanese game giant revealed a slew of new 3DS games, but almost none were new intellectual properties.


GameSpot spoke with Nintendo director of product marketing Bill Trinen after the presentation about why the company continues to return to its existing franchises.

"There's a couple of driving reasons why you keep seeing a lot of the same franchises come back," Trinen said. "One is just the way that we develop games. What we don't do is start off and say we're going to develop a new game in X series or what are we going to do with it? It's really more about what is a fun and interesting new gameplay element or gameplay mechanic? How do we develop that? And then what kind of a character or what series is that really best suited to?"


Trinen explained that in many cases, once a compelling new idea is conceived, it makes sense to pair that with an established character--like Mario or Zelda--so that the game can appeal to a wide range of people.

"And so, in a lot of the cases, if you've got an idea that's really fun and really interesting, pairing that with, for example, Mario, then that takes a fun and interesting gameplay mechanic and puts it with a character that makes it instantly appealing to a very wide range of people," Trinen said.


As part of its 3DS announcements yesterday, Nintendo revealed new gameplay ideas for upcoming installments to existing franchises.


The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past sequel for 3DS includes a new feature (pictured) where Link can morph into paper and move against walls, while the new 3DS Mario Party game will include AR Card games.


A second reason why Nintendo continues to develop new entries in existing franchises is because that's what fans want, Trinen said.

"Of course the other approach is, as you frequently see with Nintendo Directs and announcements like this, when we do announce something like a new Yoshi's Island, there's a tremendous fan reaction to that because they want it [laughs]."


Ultimately, Trinen acknowledged that the balancing act between delivering new franchises and extending existing ones is a challenging task, but one that Nintendo believes it has been successful at executing.


"You do on the one hand want to try to find a way to bridge that gap between what are the new experiences that we can offer? How can we give the fans what they're looking for in terms of new installments in existing series? And it is a balance that you've got to find."

 

[moothemagiccow]



Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003  /t/1468764/where-has-nintendos-creativity-gone#post_23219349


This is true - but the brand/characters have associations that they can't leave behind. Mario has to be able stomp things and break blocks with his head. Link has a sword, shield, boomerang etc....and it's going to have dungeons and an overworld. Samus will shoot stuff with her gun arm, lose her power ups in an early fight, etc....


Overly relying on the same characters and franchises has absolutely held back the gameplay concepts they're able to explore with their big games. Especially when every time they stray too far, like getting out of the ship in starfox assault....there's a backlash, or the game doesn't turn out well.

Even with such broad requirements, they're not always used. Kirby's Epic Yarn features no flying, no sucking, no enemy power absorption, and you can't die. Easily the best "let's graft a character onto this new game idea" there's been. Gamecube Starfox is obviously the worst. Mario Kart doesn't have any stomping. You can't jump in Luigi's Mansion. Dr Mario has nothing to do with the main series at all. I've only played a demo of Mario Tennis, but it's mostly a tennis game with powerups, like mario kart's a racing game with powerups.


Zelda isn't nearly as spinoff/sequel happy as Mario, so I'm not even sure why that's mentioned.


The only thing I get from this is that Nintendo can do nothing to satisfy the game blogger. There's one who says the 3DS has too many good first party games, so people are buying that more than Wii U. In 2012, It wasn't worth buying.


Now there are too many sequels, while sequels from other publishers consistently light up the charts and get great reviews. Bloggers freak out about remakes of Ducktales, Mickey Mouse and Final Fantasy, but a remake of Wind Waker is too much.

 

[bd2003]



Quote:
Originally Posted by moothemagiccow  /t/1468764/where-has-nintendos-creativity-gone#post_23220254


Even with such broad requirements, they're not always used. Kirby's Epic Yarn features no flying, no sucking, no enemy power absorption, and you can't die. Easily the best "let's graft a character onto this new game idea" there's been.

And given all that, it would have been the perfect time to introduce a new IP. Maybe they lose a few initial sales without the recognizable face....but at least the game has its own character (pun very much intended).

Quote:
Gamecube Starfox is obviously the worst.

And this is where over stretching the same few franchises gets risky - make a bad game, and you dilute that brand. They've done it so many times with starfox now, I feel like that IP is almost beyond repair. (Yeah, I said it.)

Quote:
Mario Kart doesn't have any stomping. You can't jump in Luigi's Mansion. Dr Mario has nothing to do with the main series at all. I've only played a demo of Mario Tennis, but it's mostly a tennis game with powerups, like mario kart's a racing game with powerups.

This runs the gamut from fan service to "ugghhh". Mario kart, party, tennis etc...fine by me. Those games are defined by the second word, not the first, and they require a wide cast of fun characters that at least for now, only Mario can provide for them. Although bless them for trying that one time with Diddy Kong Racing. Luigi's mansion....starting to push it, could have used the GC launch to introduce someone new. Dr. Mario? Sigh. (Even though I love the game) I know that throwing a Nintendo character on a puzzle game is a time honored Nintendo tradition, but its still just a cheap cash in. He's right, it does widen the appeal, but it does take away the opportunity to create something completely unique.


There is an alternate universe where Professor Layton is Professor Mario, and where Pikmin was Mario's Garden....knowing how well they turned out, aren't you glad they didnt go there? Maybe they'd have more IPs like Layton or Pikmin if every new idea wasnt coated in Mario, Yoshi or Pokemon.

 

[moothemagiccow]

Could be worse, could have Sonic the Hedgehog driving a car.

 

[voodoozen]



Quote:
Originally Posted by moothemagiccow  /t/1468764/where-has-nintendos-creativity-gone#post_23220438


Could be worse, could have Sonic the Hedgehog driving a car.

We had Mario throwing cookies, does that count?



Poor Sonic fans forget how bad Pac Man games are... they've rehashed that former icon so many ways, it's unrecognizable garbage.




I think where BD and a lot of we long-time Nintendo fans get frustrated is the sheer volume of titles with very similar formulas...


Zelda is overworld/dungeon/item/boss

Mario 2D is jump/run right

Metroid is find item/backtrack/solve puzzle

Kirby is cute

Mario Kart is


And the all-too-rare games that broke those molds by changing up gameplay (even just slightly) are unanimously accepted as god-tier.


OoT was magical

Mario 64 and Galaxy stunned us all

Metroid Prime has been touted as the "Citizen Kane" of games

DKC was mind blowing, and DKCR was just as good if not better in many respects (Sunset Shore, holy crap)



If we somehow end up with 25 years Uncharted sequels, infinite repeats of Nathan Drake getting into cockamamie situations and fending off ridiculous hordes of suicidal enemies, we'll be cursing Naughty Dog and Sony just as bad. Tomb Raider has made changes and refreshed things a bit in the last 4-5 years, even if the basic formula is the same.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) And I may be the only one that liked Starfox Adventures.... the last 2 levels and final boss were obviously tacked on crap, but as a whole it wasn't a bad adventure game

 

[ThisOneKidMongo]



Quote:
Originally Posted by jhoff80  /t/1468764/where-has-nintendos-creativity-gone#post_23219215


I know that this is really the opposite of what this post is about, but man, put it in the Metroid universe, and that could be really interesting. I know there was Metroid Prime Hunters for the DS, but even that game mostly starred Samus. We saw armies in Prime 3, you could easily have a more traditional FPS involving that sort of thing and still tie it into the same universe. I mean, while they haven't fleshed out too much of the universe other than a few planets along the way (since each game is pretty confined to a single planet or rarely a group of planets), they could still easily do some sort of Halo ODST style game that way.

I'd also be OK with this. Basically, make SOMETHING that appeals to the same type of person who bought an N64 (and played it for years) just for Goldeneye. I don't know why Nintendo doesn't pursue that audience more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moothemagiccow  /t/1468764/where-has-nintendos-creativity-gone#post_23220438


Could be worse, could have Sonic the Hedgehog driving a car.

Hey, the recent Sonic racing game is really good.


Also all voodoozen's opinions are invalid and he may possibly not be a real person because NO ONE liked Star Fox Adventures.

 

[bd2003]



Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoozen  /t/1468764/where-has-nintendos-creativity-gone#post_23221440


We had Mario throwing cookies, does that count?



Poor Sonic fans forget how bad Pac Man games are... they've rehashed that former icon so many ways, it's unrecognizable garbage.




I think where BD and a lot of we long-time Nintendo fans get frustrated is the sheer volume of titles with very similar formulas...


Zelda is overworld/dungeon/item/boss

Mario 2D is jump/run right

Metroid is find item/backtrack/solve puzzle

Kirby is cute

Mario Kart is


And the all-too-rare games that broke those molds by changing up gameplay (even just slightly) are unanimously accepted as god-tier.


OoT was magical

Mario 64 and Galaxy stunned us all

Metroid Prime has been touted as the "Citizen Kane" of games

DKC was mind blowing, and DKCR was just as good if not better in many respects (Sunset Shore, holy crap)



If we somehow end up with 25 years Uncharted sequels, infinite repeats of Nathan Drake getting into cockamamie situations and fending off ridiculous hordes of suicidal enemies, we'll be cursing Naughty Dog and Sony just as bad. Tomb Raider has made changes and refreshed things a bit in the last 4-5 years, even if the basic formula is the same.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) And I may be the only one that liked Starfox Adventures.... the last 2 levels and final boss were obviously tacked on crap, but as a whole it wasn't a bad adventure game

And not that I really want to drag Sony into this for fear of starting a console war but....it's night and day right now. Vita launched with multiple new first party IPs (gravity rush, little deviants, escape plan, etc), alongside the mainstays like uncharted and wipeout. PS4 showed off killzone and infamous sequels....but also something brand new with knack and drive club. This year I can already think of three new IPs coming to PS3 by Sony - last of us, beyond:two souls, puppeteer, amidst some old favorites like GoW, GT, etc. It's hitting that balance that Nintendo claims to be seeking.


To see all this new stuff start to bubble up now that we're on the cusp of a new gen, whilst Nintendo just sits back and rides on their same few franchises....it's just a little sad, cause whatever I think of their platform or hardware, I KNOW they can do better than this when it comes to originality.