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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hey guys-What is the best way to figure out where to put this beast- My room is 17x28 and I have it lying behind the screen wall- I get plenty of shake(upstairs) BUT do not seem to get the SLAM I used to get with my SVS B4-It is to big to drag out to my seats and walk around the room - So how else can I figure where to put it- Maybe I need two of them and put them mid wall??- I am running it with a Crown k2 (not bridged)- thanks,gary
 

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Gary,

I have a Danley DTS-20 too in a fairly large room (about 7500 cu ft) that is leaky being open into the stairway and the dining area which has an open floor plan (18 ft ceiling).

My primary listening position is about 16 ft from the subwoofer. Placement is the biggest issue with the DTS-20. I found through ETF measurements that laying it flat vs upright had a dramatic impact in frequency response. I got the best SLAM by making it stand upright and corner loading it. Unlike what many think that the positioning the ports in the corner loads it better, my experience was different. This is what I found. The driver is located around the middle of the sub. Drop a perpendicular (plumbline) to the floor from the driver and you wil find that if you make it stand upright the driver is in the corner, if you lay it flat, it is about 4 ft from the corner along the side wall. Being 4 ft away loads it differently. In essense, it appears the way to corner load it is by making it stand upright. Depending on your room, sometimes laying it flat may give a better response but that was not the case in mine. In short, corner loading can be achieved with the DTS-20 only by making it stand upright (unless the DTS-20 was L_Shaped, or the driver was located in one of the corners and not the middle).

I encountered an issue with the DTS-20 that still remains to be resolved, but I think I have found the issue. This week, some parts are arriving and I will know for sure if that is indeed the problem. I cannot go into details right now because of the nasty way this thread here Tom Danley's DTS-20? Tower of power? One sub to rule them all? turned out. I have been a member of this forum for several years now and have always had constructive conversations and learned a lot. It was a science forum here at one time, but now sad to see it is degrading. There are still a lot of respectable people here that I can still learn from, but the few that attack people personally has made this place very unfriendly. I took a passive approach last time. I have enough data now and considerably more experience than some of those here who make random comments especially harsh ones. I will be posting my finding shortly and we will see what transpires. I have been mostly communicating through PMs with people who are interested in the DTS-20 so we can communicate through PMs until I find more.

Even the manufacturer is supportive of my findings, but I don't know why some here are so rude. This time, I will tackle them appropriately.

Here is an alternative way to find the best placement. Put the DTS-20 in your primary listening position and move the mic around to get response curves. Where you get the best response, is where your DTS should be.

Thanks,

-Jai
 

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Gary,

Before you move your subwoofer, would you mind posting peak SPLs that you observe at the primary listening position?


Calibrate your spearkers to 75dB reference and set your sub to 78dB (3dB hot).

If you have the following DVDs, bass scenes from those would be a great place to start the measurment.


1. Darla tapping the fish tank in Finding Nemo

2. THX exploding ball in the beginning of the movie Star Wars Phantom menace

3. I Robot (DTS version, you are in a car accident when the car gets between 2 massive trucks).


This would really help me get a reference point. Also please describe more details of the room (total cu ft) how leaky and how far away are you from the sub.

Really look forward for your measurements.

Thanks,

-Jai
 

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One more thing to consider..

Being a previous owner of dual SVS CS-Ultras with a Crown K2, I fully understand what you mean by SLAM. Sure, the slam is different, but there is something special and different about the DTS-20 that I noticed when I started doing critical listening which I don't do while watching movies. I usually do extensive critical music listening while playing CDs in pure 2-ch mode through tubes where I listen for the finer details. It is like I switch modes when it comes to movies. I look for that violent shake. The DTS-20 does shake but not like the SVS at least in my room. Where the DTS-20 shined was in the Star Wars pod race. The sound of the engines sounded incredibly good. It did not bottom out at reference levels and I wanted to watch that chapter again and so I did 3 times. The SVS did a great job too in the Pod race but it did not make me to come back again and again. Where the SVS gave me the grin, the DTS-20 gave me the wonder. I started listening to SACDs lately and boy does it sound great. Brothers in Arms (Dire Straits), the drums in track 5 are breath taking. I wonder how it would sound with the SVS.

Danley labs have paid a lot of attention to "group delay" and this maybe the reason why it sounds so clean and realistic. I do miss the SVS though when it comes to shake.

I hope the fix I have in mind for the DTS-20 brings the slam back and I hope this is just an issue with my unit since my quest for the ultimate sub has not ended yet and it is taking a lot of my time and emotions. I suspect leaking gaskets. The stock gaskets for the front cover are so very thin, I don't think they seal the air completely. After the cover is removed for a couple of times, it should be replaced in my opinion.

I am going to replace all gaskets (in the cover, amp and driver seating). Again it is too early to say if this will fix it. I will post my findings this week if the gaskets arrive.

I have talked to Ivan about this. He has been very busy for the past 3 weeks and we are doing some parallel tests. My biggest issue now is that there is a Goliath standing in my family room. This was what me and my family had imagined. We wanted it laying down on the side where it is not that conspicuous. I wish I had know this before.

Will synch up with you Gary and we can post our findings together for the benefit of several others here. that I know are looking for feedback based on all the PMs I have received.

-Jai
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by new27 /forum/post/0


jcomp, that was a great read, thanks


ultimately though, not exactly a glowing review, which I appreciate

Anytime!

I had a great conversation with bebop86 (Gary). Great guy who knows his stuff. He has owned a contrabass before and also the bid daddy SVS B4+. I will let him express his thoughts but just as an FYI, he will be doing some of the measurments I had requested and will hopefully be able to get it to us tomorrow.


I dug back into the archives and found Mike Hedden's .

I am trying to co-relate this to what I am observing and I am having a hard time with it (120dB from 20 to 60 Hz). I have requested for details on how and where exactly it was measured.


If this was at 1 meter. My primary listening position is about 5 meters. Since SPL to distance is an inverse square function, I could expect a 12dB drop that translates to 108dB assuming no room interaction (a big assumption but because it is so large and leaky and I may not be at a peak). In reality there would be room gain, so I don't know how to co-relate with those measurements.


The Darla scene has a lot of 30Hz material and going way down deep. It maybe the case that the violent shaking etc could be harmonics from the SVS or the room getting excited at certain frequencies, but I have not measured it. Regardless, it felt good
. Maybe the same reason why some prefer tube based pre-amps over something like an SS ELAD.


I want to call the DTS-20, at least my unit, the "world's most musical and cleanest sounding sub" not the "world's most powerful".
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
As Jai has mentioned I had the B4 (WHAT A SUB!!!)- sold it when I went 2 channel-It seems to me (without testing) that the folks at Danley feel that the DTS-20 -is extremely accurate while the SVS subs have a hump around 60-70HZ(where the chest pounding comes in)-Maybe,just maybe when we are discussing chest pounding action- we do not want such an accurate sub BUT one that will go down low and also put a grinn ear to ear when our friends are over watching movies-

This is exactly what the B4 did everytime-SO far the danley shakes the house (upstairs) but is very underwhelming in the room itself- That said I will have to play with placement to see if I can get to work the way I had hoped it would-Will be back tomorrow with some measurements- gary
 

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I know some of you have been waiting on these numbers. Gary hasn't had a chance to post them here yet but after speaking to him, he is not pleased with the SPL either. So maybe his system needs more calibration and placement or maybe another defective unit??, I don't know. We will have to wait for Gary to post. I replaced the speaker gaskets and nothing has changed in the performance. At this point, I am thinking of sending it to Danley labs for a thorough evaluation that may shed some light.
 

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Hi Gary,

Just for giggles...try bridging your K-2. The added horsepower may wake up the beast and with as huge as the damping factor is on that amp, the drop in damping from bridging it may actually help (see below). You'll know if you are overdriving the woofer.


My experience in my demo space with the DTS-20 (8500 ft3) is that I have seemingly gobs of inexhaustible output. My sub is configured with the bottom firing port and I have it standing up behind the screen wall about 2 feet from the corner. The same result can be achieved by lying it down so that the bottom firing port is in the corner.


And yes, my findings with this sub are identical to Jai's experience with sound quality. The DTS-20 is almost eerie in how clean and detailed it is. But that being said...I am getting a lot of slam as well.


One other thing to look at...how do you have your K2 mated to your Preamp? If you are using an RCA output going into an RCA-XLR adapter...you may be missing some voltage gain to the amp. Pro amps want a much hotter input signal. This can have quite an effect on the dynamics and output. If this IS the case...get ye a Cleanbox.


One last possibility...the Crown K series amps are fantastic but their damping factor is out of the ballpark (>3000 10 to 400hz) . Perhaps some of the "slam" you are missing may be a factor of too much damping. I know that when I try differerent amps on my DTS-20, the sound changes. With higher damped amps, the sound is ultra clean and super precise. With lower damping, it is more rounded and fatter. Perhaps the "slam" factor is actually a lack of amp and woofer control and more distortion. This may explain the comparison between the SVS which has a big hump and nowhere near the control or low distortion of the DTS-20, particularly with the low damping plate amp in there vs the ultra high K-2. If you have access to another amp, try putting it in there and see what happens.
 

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Hi Soundood,

Can you explain what you mean by this "My sub is configured with the bottom firing port ".

I'd like to try it out.


With that kind of sound quality and detail, if it only delivered earth shaking SPL that would be end my quest for the ultimate sub. Wait a minute, I would want one more to cover the 5Hz to 20Hz range at 120dB
at which time I would venture DIY or hire someone to build it.

I just talked to Gary and his problem is different from mine. I am able to overdrive the sub and bottom it out and able to achieve higher SPL in a larger room than his, while his appears to be limiting SPL. He did push it to the extreme to the point the amp clipped, but there was no bottoming out like what I am experiencing. I have decided to ship my sub back to Danley.

$500 for just shipping. Ouch
.

When Gary gets a minute, he will post details.

Mine is on avs marketplace now. Even after the problem is fixed, I may never get to experience that earth shaking SPL coupled with ultimate clean bass, if it sells. I think mine is performing at 95% of it's full potential now. I wish I knew what more I can do before shipping it out. ANy pointers from you may help.

Thanks,

-Jai
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundood /forum/post/0


This may explain the comparison between the SVS which has a big hump and nowhere near the control or low distortion of the DTS-20, particularly with the low damping plate amp in there vs the ultra high K-2. If you have access to another amp, try putting it in there and see what happens.

I am not sure what exactly you mean by big hump. Do you mean an artificial increase in certain frequencies? I don't believe there is any big hump in the SVS based on my experience and measurements. The DTS-20 indeed sounded beautiful (within its limits). So did the SVS but in a different way.

-Jai
 

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Jai,

Have you compared your SVS to a HSU sub. I am thinking of changing my sub and was considering a HSU. Is there more detail in the hsu(if you know). I too am interested in the dts-20. Right now I have a SVS pb12/plus/2.
 

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Mktheater,

Sorry no, I have not heard any of the HSU subs. I have read extensively about them and for the price they seem to be a very good value. Your pb12/plus/2 is an astounding performer and I can vouch for that because I have owned one before. I would keep it and add another pb12/plus/2. Another option is an HSU MBM-12 that might give you the detail that you think you are missing. I have read very good reviews about the MBM and I am really curious about it since I had imagined something like that a couple of years ago. The DTS-20 is in a league of it's own in musicality. I have some very difficult choices to make in the near future with subwoofers. See my post on the avsmarket place or PM me. Do you have any restrictions in size or placement. With a DTS-20, do you have both options to stand it up or lay it on the side? My DTS-20 will be picked up tomorrow and Ivan and others will start working on it 1st week of Feb.

It's hard to describe the nature of the DTS-20. If I attempt to desribe it, I would call it startling or frightening especially when it comes to explosions. With music, it is the transitions and dynamics that are absolutely smooth. I sometimes feel that I need 2 types of subs that I can switch between. I don't mean one for music and one for movies because there are overlaps between the two in the types of tracks that one shines over the other.

This is best explained with a couple of examples. For the Darla scene, I prefer the SVS period, no doubts at all about that. For the Star wars pod race, I prefer the DTS-20 over the SVS. For pipe organ the 16-46 did an amazing job digging deep. If as Soundood says, the DTS-20 can also offer that shake that comes from high SPL then that would be it!!!

Maybe both Gary and I got some bad pieces that Danley needs to fix.

I was not that impressed with the internals of the DTS-20 in terms of quality. They may have quality control issues which maybe the cause of all these problems that me and Gary are seeing. A few examples are the moderate quality of the woodwork where the amp seats, the front cover etc all places of potential leak. Another issue is being so huge it is kind of fragile with all the woodwork inside and sometimes shipping can also cause issues.

Maybe Danley could use av123's help in building rock solid enclosures. Having looked at the internals of the rocket and onix lines, I can clearly measure the difference in quality.

-Jai
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 /forum/post/0


Hi Soundood,

Can you explain what you mean by this "My sub is configured with the bottom firing port ".

I'd like to try it out.


With that kind of sound quality and detail, if it only delivered earth shaking SPL that would be end my quest for the ultimate sub. Wait a minute, I would want one more to cover the 5Hz to 20Hz range at 120dB
at which time I would venture DIY or hire someone to build it.

I just talked to Gary and his problem is different from mine. I am able to overdrive the sub and bottom it out and able to achieve higher SPL in a larger room than his, while his appears to be limiting SPL. He did push it to the extreme to the point the amp clipped, but there was no bottoming out like what I am experiencing. I have decided to ship my sub back to Danley.

$500 for just shipping. Ouch
.

When Gary gets a minute, he will post details.

Mine is on avs marketplace now. Even after the problem is fixed, I may never get to experience that earth shaking SPL coupled with ultimate clean bass, if it sells. I think mine is performing at 95% of it's full potential now. I wish I knew what more I can do before shipping it out. ANy pointers from you may help.

Thanks,

-Jai

The DTS-20 can be had with the bass outlet either in the middle or the bottom. Mine was spec'd for the bottom. Shouldn't make that much difference if the sub is standing upright but it may matter if the sub is lying down.


Both issues may be bass issues with the room. Do either of you have bass trapping in the room? Odd as it may seem, putting bass absorption in will actually increase the bass output. In your case, it may allow you to hit the DB you need without bottoming out. In Gary's case, it may give him the extra output he needs (I still would like to know if he has tried bridging his K2 and whether he has the amp properly voltage matched). I do know that in my space, which is larger than yours and well treated acoustically, I get more than output and plenty of "shudder factor". Even with the primary seats at 25' back from the screen wall, which is a huge throw distance. I do know that before we put bass trapping in...there was considerably less output in the deep bass...and my space actually has well spaced out, very even nodes. I also have less room gain than you with another 1500 ft3 of volume.


Last but not least...I noticed that you have the powered version. This may possibly be one issue. The amp Danley uses is a bit light on power in my opinion for a larger space. It is properly spec'd for a normal sized theater room, but you have a larger than normal space and I'm wondering if that may have an impact (or lack there of). I drive mine with about 1 to 1.5 kw depending on what is hooked in. I know that at one point, we tried a single channel of a 450 w/ch amp we had and though it worked very well, it definitely lost some of the furious power it had.


One thing that you may consider is what I'm looking into...building a sub subwoofer (infrasub). I intend to build something that will extend the output from 8hz up to the 15hz cutoff point of the DTS-20. There is a quite amusing thread I started over in the DIY sub forum if you want to check it out. Lots of fur flying and insults from the different camps (is IS a DIY forum after all
). I'd love to have Danley build me an uber version (DTS-60) but they are far too booked up.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 /forum/post/0


I am not sure what exactly you mean by big hump. Do you mean an artificial increase in certain frequencies? I don't believe there is any big hump in the SVS based on my experience and measurements. The DTS-20 indeed sounded beautiful (within its limits). So did the SVS but in a different way.

-Jai


Yup. Quite a few folks have measured a hump around the 60hz range with the SVS.

Not sure if that is the case with the current versions or not. By the way,

if I was to recommend another conventional sub after a DTS-20 and you don't have a $10K budget...no question what I'd get...the Seaton Submersive.
 

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Hello Soundood,


I have a DTS20 with the port on the end. If you place this upright does the port go on top or the bottom. Danleys picture on their site shows the port on top. Your site shows it on the bottom,or does it matter?


Thanks,


rmlowz
 

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Soundood,


I noticed you have your sub behind your screen. Is it a perforated screen? Does it need to be? I have a few feet behind my screen wall with access to get in and out on the sides as well...and have thought about putting my sub there...but my screen is not perforated.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundood /forum/post/0


The DTS-20 can be had with the bass outlet either in the middle or the bottom. Mine was spec'd for the bottom. Shouldn't make that much difference if the sub is standing upright but it may matter if the sub is lying down.


Both issues may be bass issues with the room. Do either of you have bass trapping in the room? Odd as it may seem, putting bass absorption in will actually increase the bass output. In your case, it may allow you to hit the DB you need without bottoming out. In Gary's case, it may give him the extra output he needs (I still would like to know if he has tried bridging his K2 and whether he has the amp properly voltage matched). I do know that in my space, which is larger than yours and well treated acoustically, I get more than output and plenty of "shudder factor". Even with the primary seats at 25' back from the screen wall, which is a huge throw distance. I do know that before we put bass trapping in...there was considerably less output in the deep bass...and my space actually has well spaced out, very even nodes. I also have less room gain than you with another 1500 ft3 of volume.


Last but not least...I noticed that you have the powered version. This may possibly be one issue. The amp Danley uses is a bit light on power in my opinion for a larger space. It is properly spec'd for a normal sized theater room, but you have a larger than normal space and I'm wondering if that may have an impact (or lack there of). I drive mine with about 1 to 1.5 kw depending on what is hooked in. I know that at one point, we tried a single channel of a 450 w/ch amp we had and though it worked very well, it definitely lost some of the furious power it had.


One thing that you may consider is what I'm looking into...building a sub subwoofer (infrasub). I intend to build something that will extend the output from 8hz up to the 15hz cutoff point of the DTS-20. There is a quite amusing thread I started over in the DIY sub forum if you want to check it out. Lots of fur flying and insults from the different camps (is IS a DIY forum after all
). I'd love to have Danley build me an uber version (DTS-60) but they are far too booked up.

Soundood,

Thanks for the useful pointers. No I don't have bass traps in the room but I don't think that is the issue. I think Gary was advised not to bridge the K2 as it may overdrive the sub. I also told him to be cautious with bridging. Well, you know this sub better, so maybe it is ok.

I do suspect that the amp is underpowerd and I am with you on that. When I had the K2, I tried without bridging and it bottomed out at that time too. Dang, I should have looked for the clipping light on the powered amp.

Ivan has been doing some testing and with the stock amp, he pushed the floor models to their limits (supposedly) until the internal amp limiter kicked in and there was no strange noise like what I heard. I am still not sure if Ivan's test pushed the sub to the limit, I did. Even with the amp turned to 0dB (full power), if the amp limiter kicked in early, then that would limit how much the sub can be pushed. My K2, didn't have a limiter and maybe my amp's limiter kicks in later. Too much to speculate. I am going to let the designers figure it out.

Well, the sub is all ready and packed up and the crate is as strong as a fortress. I hate to think of the long journey from Portland, OR to GA that it has to make. Man, that crate is heavy like lead.

We will know soon..

-Jai
 

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I don't know all of the characteristics of the DTS-20. But since it is a horn type sub this could be a factor too. Many pro sound horn subs have much more directionality to them than do direct radiators, for example. Aimable bass to a degree. If any setup material is provided by Danley, they may go into it. In any event the normal sub setup rules may not fully apply.
 
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