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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi everyone, I am debating whether it is worth the hassle of importing Region 1 NTSC dvd's to play on my RP82 progressive dvd player, or stick with local Region 4 PAL dvd's.


Do you think 480p is superior to 540i?


P.S. I have a Sony HS10, with about a 90" screen, (which I hope to increase to 130"+ soon).
 

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Actually PAL is 576i. Since it is interlaced you only get 288 lines at one time. Progressive is always going to be better since you get 480 lines every time. There isn't even a contest. PAL also has a drawback of 4% speed up of sound on film based material.
 

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I thought NTSC is 480i, and that 480p is ATSC (SD)?


Is there such a thing as a progressive scan DVD?? The closest to this that i seem to remember reading some tech stuff about is that DVDs can be encoded in such a way to make progressive playback better. But i didn't think DVDs are progressive by nature.


At any rate, if NTSC DVDs can be progressive, wouldn't PAL DVDs be able to be progressive as well then?


/confused
 

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Gertjan,


Jonny5nz asked to compare interlaced PAL to progressive NTSC. Of course PAL can be progressive also. To simply put it, deinterlacer takes interlaced fields and combines them creating single frame.
 

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CKNA: My confusion stemmed from from your original reply, which implied that progressive is always NTSC ("Progressive is always going to be better since you get 480 lines every time.") and thus implied that PAL is always interlaced... :)


Anyway, just to make things clear -


- PAL has more lines of resolution than NTSC.

- Progressive looks better than interlaced.


Theoretically i think the best quality (picture-wise) would be:


1. Progressive PAL

2. Interlaced PAL

3. Progressive NTSC

4. Interlaced NTSC


(This is assuming all else, such as the master that was used, is equal. If they used different masters or something like that, all bets are off.)


The reason i put interlaced PAL 2nd is that with a good DVD player you'll be able to recreate the progressive frames from the interlaced source. So with that, you'd have a better picture quality with PAL than with NTSC, since PAL has a higher line count. That's just theory though. I do not yet have any PAL DVDs to compare to the NTSC ones.


Now, all the stuff above is assuming that there is such a distinction as progressive DVDs and Interlaced DVDs. Does that exist? I've never seen it written on the DVD case obviously... Can anybody deny or confirm?


Jonny: Can you order progressive NTSC DVDs?? Or are you talking about ordering "just" NTSC DVDs? Like i said, i've never seen the distinction between progressive and interlaced being mentioned anywhere on any DVDs, and therefore wonder how you would go about ordering progressive NTSC DVDs.
 

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This is confusing to me as well. Can you buy a Region 2 or Region 4 (PAL) progressive scan DVD player? If I play a PAL disc on a multi-region player set for progressive scan, is it output as 480p, 476i, ir 476p?


I used to play some PAL VCDs on my old Sony DVD player, and it would vertically squash the picture down to 480 lines. Not sure if it was progressive because the picture was terrible anyway. :)


Brad
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi guys, I wrote a response earlier today, but I must not have hit the right buttons because it hasn't come up...doh!


Anyway, what I said earlier was that I've done a brief comparison of PAL (interlaced) and NTSC (progressive) movies before. The movies were The Fast and the Furious and Lord of the Rings. I couldn't do an A B comparison because I've only got one RP82, so I saw them a minute or two apart. I was suprised that there wasn't an obvious a difference as I thought there would be. Perhaps the HS10 is de-interlacing the PAL?


As for whether yo can buy progressive DVD's... sorry for the confusion, but NTSC dvd's are interlaced unless you play them with the right equipment... ie progressive DVD player/HTPC/seperate de-interlacer (ie. iScan pro).


I hope that progressive is the best picture, as I bought the RP82 especially for this purpose.

Question... DOES the HS10 de-interlace the PAL dvd's? because if it does, then the PAL dvd's should be giving me the best picture, followed by the NTSC 480p, then PAL 540i (576i?), and then NTSC 480i.
 

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Picture aside, who can stand the audio speedup in PAL? Even if PAL was double the res I wouldn't watch them without a pitch fix.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Jesse S
Picture aside, who can stand the audio speedup in PAL? Even if PAL was double the res I wouldn't watch them without a pitch fix.
Is it only PAL in progressive that has this sound timing problem? because I've never noticed it watching my interlaced dvd's.
 

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Jonny 5


You keep talking about progressive DVDs and interlaced DVDs. Is there such a distinction?? As in - do you KNOW that disc A is a progressive disc and disc B is an interlaced disc?


I get the feeling that there's some misunderstanding going on here.


You can VIEW a disc either interlaced or progressive, but that is a function of the device / software you use to view the DVD with, not of the DVD itself.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Jonny5nz
Is it only PAL in progressive that has this sound timing problem? because I've never noticed it watching my interlaced dvd's.
All PAL video runs at 25fps. Most people who live in PAL countries don't notice the speedup because they are used to it. Also, some PAL DVDs have their audio pitch-adjusted to sound more natural.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gertjan
Jonny 5


You keep talking about progressive DVDs and interlaced DVDs. Is there such a distinction?? As in - do you KNOW that disc A is a progressive disc and disc B is an interlaced disc?


I get the feeling that there's some misunderstanding going on here.


You can VIEW a disc either interlaced or progressive, but that is a function of the device / software you use to view the DVD with, not of the DVD itself.
I believe there is a misunderstanding as well. All DVD-video is stored in interlaced format. It is up to the DVD player or the display to deinterlace it and form a progressive image.


That said, when the DVD is mastered, if the video stream is properly flagged this will assist a flag-reading deinterlacer to properly combine the fields and reduce combing errors. However, there is no such thing as a "progressive DVD".


A full explanation of progressive scan is found on this page:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...e-10-2000.html
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Jonny5nz
DOES the HS10 de-interlace the PAL dvd's? because if it does, then the PAL dvd's should be giving me the best picture, followed by the NTSC 480p, then PAL 540i (576i?), and then NTSC 480i.
The HS10 is a natively progressive scan display. If it receives an interlaced signal, it will deinterlace it. If it receives a progressive signal from the DVD player, it will just send it straight through. The projector is incapable of displaying an interlaced image. Everything is progressive scan by the time it gets to your screen.


All DVD-video starts out as interlaced. You can turn it into progressive either in the DVD player or in the projector. The difference in quality between the two will depend on which has the better deinterlacer, the DVD player or the projector. In your case, it is better to use the deinterlacer in the DVD player, so make sure the RP82 is set for progressive scan.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Gertjan, I thought I cleared this up in my last post...
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonny5nz
As for whether yo can buy progressive DVD's... sorry for the confusion, but NTSC dvd's are interlaced unless you play them with the right equipment... ie progressive DVD player/HTPC/seperate de-interlacer (ie. iScan pro).
Josh Z, so what you are saying is that my PAL disks should be giving me a superior picture right?

Why does my HS10 say it is interlaced in the Information Menu, when I play PAL dvds?


Jesse S, I watch both NTSC and PAL dvd's regularly and haven't noticed any mis-timed lip synching!
 

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The speedup occurs to keep sync. The problem is the speedup shifts the pitch up a semi-tone or so giving voices an odd sound. Some people don't seem to notice it but within a few seconds I can tell.


Examples:


The Big One PAL - Michael Moore's voice sounds higher. Unwatchable for me.


Futurama episodes from R2 (PAL). Everyone's voice is higher. Fry sounds weird, bender sounds girly. Can't stand it.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Jonny5nz
Josh Z, so what you are saying is that my PAL disks should be giving me a superior picture right?

Why does my HS10 say it is interlaced in the Information Menu, when I play PAL dvds?
Your PAL DVD player is not deinterlacing the signal. It is sending it to the projector in interlaced format, and then the projector is deinterlacing it. When the HS10 says "Interlaced" in the Information Menu, it is referring to the type of signal coming in, not what winds up on the screen (which will always be progressive).


Are you using the same DVD player for both formats? If so, I'd guess that the Region 4 version of the RP-82 is only capable of deinterlacing NTSC content. This is not surprising, as progressive scan is not commonly available for the PAL format yet.


Will an interlaced PAL signal that is deinterlaced by the projector look better than a progressive scan NTSC signal? That depends. On my particular projector (NEC LT-240), the internal deinterlacer noticably softens the picture. Therefore, a deinterlaced PAL picture would look about the same as a progressive NTSC image.
 
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