[mpjohnst]

*Note: I understand well and good that NO projector will look really great in ambient light... my intention here is to just pick the better option.
*Note2: The new Sony BlackScreen material looks like it may solve all his problems, however, because it's not out yet (or the near future) it won't be considered for this installation


Score... we've got another convert to FP! I'm going to be installing a projector and screen in my brother-in-law's apartment in NYC in the near future and need some advice.


Being Manhattan, it's a small place so I don't have any dedicated theater to work with and the (1) room will be a shared use living room/home theater/kitchen/dining room/foyer/office/library/hallway/rec room/lounge/etc... gotta love NY That said, he has really good potential light control (only one window leading to an air vent shaft). The window is easily covered and even when it's not, it doesn't let in much light. However, because the room will need to have many uses, he doesn't want to have to kill all the lights when he watches the projector. I'm well aware there are optimal ways to implement the lights so as little direct light will end up on the screen as possible. Now... on with the question.


ASSUMPTIONS:

Varying levels of light (none to little directly hitting screen)

All projector/screen combos end up with equal foot lamberts

All options use same size screens


PROJECTOR:

HLP = High Lumen Projector

MLP = Medium Lumen Projector

LLP = Low Lumen Project


SCREENS:

GNG = Gray Negative Gain Screen (not sure what is best here)

GPG = Gray Positive Gain Screen (greyhawk and firehawk come to mind)

WPG = White Positive Gain Screen (silverstar and Hi-Power come to mind)


So to keep the ft. lamberts the same, it would make sense to have the following combo options:

HLP + GNG

MLP + GPG

LLP + WPG


Assuming Overall PQ Matters (balance between colors, brightness, black levels, etc....):

Which combo will ultimately produce the best image with ambient light?

Which combo will ultimately produce the best image with the lights out?


General comments will be extremely helpful, especially if you have seen these different combos. I setup a poll too but please only vote if you have some basis for comparison. Thanks everyone and I look forward to the results!

-Matt

 

[mpjohnst]

Thanks to the few who have voted... but I was hoping for a few more than 4 before the thread fell off the first page Bump... for more votes!


Comments would be especially appreciated by the experts out there who I know have seen these combos in action (darinp2, tryg, wiggles, QQQ, Mr. Phelps, etc...). Thanks again.

-Matt

 

[Carl Brinkman]

Why no category for the obvious answer; a high lumen pj with a Firehawk screen. I have a small 82" Firehawk with a Marantz projector and would love to have 2 to 3 times the light output. I wouldn't even think of using a 100" Firehawk with the Marantz with ambient light, although others around here will disagree.


My small screen is pretty marginal during the day unless I make the room totally dark.

 

[mpjohnst]

Carl-

I was intending on that to be the obvious extension of this thread but not until after I got enough responses. First I'm trying to keep everything on an even foot lambert field to figure out which combo is best at rejecting ambient light. Then assuming there is one clear leader, see what the effects of even more light, more gain, less gain, etc... would have.

-Matt

 

[Tryg]

high lumens + high gain screen


the bottom line is you want to be near 50 foot lamberts or more, not 15


the obvious answer to me sounds like the 70" SXRD rear projection unit

 

[seavee]

I'd suggest the Sanyo PLv-70

 

[mpjohnst]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tryg high lumens + high gain screen

Well, that's not really one of the choices now is it

Keep in mind there will not be ton of ambient light and it hopefully won't be direct either. Won't the combo you recommended trash the black level? I have an L300u on a 80" Hi-Power. In the dark it looks like a plasma but with the lights on, even though the screen helps reject ambient light somewhat, the blacks are gone. Sports still looks ok but movies are pretty much out. Based on the poll results I'm thinking a grey screen might keep the black levels better... paired with a high lumen project of course.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tryg the obvious answer to me sounds like the 70" SXRD rear projection unit

While I'm sure the PQ would be great, again this is a 13' x 15' room in a one bedroom co-op in NYC. The main reason he is going FP is so he doesn't have to waste the physical space on a RPTV. Likewise, a 70" RPTV in a room that small... it would be hard to notice anything else in the room!


Thanks for the comments.

-Matt

 

[mpjohnst]

Quote:

Originally posted by seavee I'd suggest the Sanyo PLv-70

Yeah, I'm thinking about the new Canon SX50 as well due to higher pixel count and better fill. He'll probably be sitting pretty close based on teh size of his apartment. Hopefully the light spill isn't too bad. If not I'll probably have to use a panamorph and a scaler.


I'm also hoping the SD on the HS51 isn't as bad as people are expecting. I'm guessing he won't have room for a screen bigger than 80-92". The HS51 (slightly defocused) on a Firehawk may be just the ticket! Then again... only 400 lumens calibrated.

-Matt

 

[AnthonyP]

I am with tryg, but voted for 1

 

[Tryg]

Quote:

Originally posted by mpjohnst Won't the combo you recommended trash the black level? The main reason he is going FP is so he doesn't have to waste the physical space on a RPTV. Likewise, a 70" RPTV in a room that small... it would be hard to notice anything else in the room!

Black level is relative. The answer is no unless you ONLY judge picture quality by black level. Then I suggest you get a cave and a CRT.


Contrary to what you may think, Front Projection utilizes a much bigger foot print. It requires the whole room usually. Not just where the viewing happens.

 

[Andrikos]

Tryg is your man.

High lumens + High gain + High CR = Nirvana.

Everything else is a bunch of hooey...

 

[AnthonyP]

Tryg, true that the room affects FP more than RP, but FP does physically take much less space, and depending on set-up it can all be hidden so that in the room the footprint appears to be 0

 

[mpjohnst]

Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyP Tryg, true that the room affects FP more than RP, but FP does physically take much less space, and depending on set-up it can all be hidden so that in the room the footprint appears to be 0

My thoughts as well.


Trust me, you'd notice a 70" RPTV from anywhere in his whole apartment except maybe from inside the closet... with the door shut The FP will be mounted discretely at the ceiling and he'll most likely use an electric screen to be hidden away revealing a painting when not used.

-Matt

 

[mpjohnst]

Well, I was hoping for more responses but it seems that high lumens/negative gain wins out. That makes sense as it'll keep the blacks around the longest giving the image some depth. I guess the next question would be which screen to pair with a high lumen projector for best ambient light control. Would a firehawk (grey with gain) be better with ambient light than a negative gain grey screen? Would a fifteen foot throw be enough to eliminate any chance of hotspotting? Which would look better in the dark? He won't always view it with lighting present... Thanks again for everyones help.

-Matt

 

[filefish]

I am using 1k lumen crt (xg852) with a daylite 1.3 at grey 90" the grey seems to help out in the day but my main consern was to avoid a hot spot or to damage my bright sceens at night ie: weilding

 

[krasmuzik]

Did you read what darinp2 and I did the other day - ambient light is significant ftL already - see my .sig link to the thread. So you need massive ftL to be able to get some contrast to make it worth watching.


If anyone has a firehawk and SP7210 - feel free to repeat the above experiment to add the grey screen factor.



You need high lumens and high gain with narrow viewing angle and small screen. Forget about contrast. They don't make high gain grey (the FireHawk rated at 1.35 measures less) - so your best bet is a high gain silver, but the only good one is SilverStar and it has wide viewing angle which is not good for ambient. Draper M2500 is silver with a narrow viewing angle - if you can get paste the streaky sheen. Da-Lite High Power is good for no obvious screen artifacts if you have a lens shift projector and center seat.


Just to summarize - 3ftL of ambient means you cannot read or see anything - but even a 100ftL screen will only give you 33:1 contrast ratio.


to restate your objective


"Note: I understand well and good that NO projector will look VERY GOOD AT ALL in ambient light... my intention here is to just pick the better option"

 

[darinp2]

What is the budget and timeframe? At this point if he doesn't need it soon I would suggest waiting to see how this DNP blackscreen works out and any new offerings from Sony, Stewart or others in this category at CEDIA. Does he need/want fixed or pull-down? Summer is also generally the worst time for light coming in, so maybe waiting wouldn't be a bad idea from that standpoint anyway. It seems that we are right on the cusp of being able to handle lighted situations like this much better than in the past.


I think the upcoming BenQ 8720 matched with one of the DNP screens looks like it would likely make a killer combo for rooms where external ambient light is a big problem part of the time. The projector could then be opened up for these lighted situations and the irises closed down as far as desired to get high CR when there isn't light coming in.


As far as blacks being relative, they are in mixed scenes and when you have lights on. They are also relative when you have all the lights out and dark scenes come up, but here is where the relativity makes them look very gray. So yes, a 50 ft-lambert setup would currently have bad blacks in very dark scenes to a lot of people. Any way you cut it they wouldn't be close to real world black levels. But as krasmuzik pointed out, when you have lights coming in you aren't going to get close to real world absolute black levels anyway.


People have different preferences. I thought the Firehawk looked better at his place than the SilverStar or High Power when he had light coming in.


--Darin

 

[JHouse]

I'm with Tryg. You missed the real choice.


High Lumen plus high gain. AT LEAST 50 ft.L. At least. Really. Not kidding a bit. Nada. Do it.

 

[bonfigleo]

Tryg schmig. He is way too conservative on this issue.


I say go for Super high lumens and Super Duper High Gain.


Grey is so last year.

 

[Tryg]

I would go with a negative gain grey screen... BUT only if they made 30,000 lumen projectors for the home.