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white walls, but farther away?

2663 Views 34 Replies 9 Participants Last post by merzbow, Aug 5, 2009

merzbow

Discussion Starter · Jul 25, 2009

I am toying with getting a PJ and screen to complement my existing plasma for watching movies. I am reasonably confident I can deal with incoming ambient light, but one thing that won't change is the white walls, ceilings and curtains. Observations/questions (I've read previous threads on the subject but want comments on my specific situation):

1. The room is very large, with a peaked ceiling, so said white walls and ceiling would be about 5-10 feet away from any side of the screen (the wall behind the screen will be darker stones and darker blinds so I'm not as worried about it). Is this far enough away not to worry? I'm flexible on screen size and viewer location. PJ would be about 17' feet back from the screen on the back wall.

2. I read that getting a highly retro-reflective screen would help here. Is that true, and is the Da-Lite HP the best example of such? Do the HP screens have better/worse black level than the grayish screens I was initially considering (Firehawk, etc.)? Screen MUST be rollup manual/electric, and since it will be unrolled in front of the plasma+back wall, it should not be permeable to light.

Black level is very important to me. (My budget for a PJ would be in the range of a PT-AE3000, hence this forum.) If I can't make it work given these constraints, I'll just stick with the plasma. (Come to think of it, maybe I should look locally for a place that will rent me a PJ/screen so I can see first...)

1 - 20 of 35 Posts

rover2002

· #2 · Jul 25, 2009

I to have white walls and the image even at night can look slightly washed out, i'm currently looking at getting a grey screen with 0.8 gain.

RapalloAV

· #3 · Jul 25, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by merzbow /forum/post/16884025

I am toying with getting a PJ and screen to complement my existing plasma for watching movies. I am reasonably confident I can deal with incoming ambient light, but one thing that won't change is the white walls, ceilings and curtains. Observations/questions (I've read previous threads on the subject but want comments on my specific situation):

1. The room is very large, with a peaked ceiling, so said white walls and ceiling would be about 5-10 feet away from any side of the screen (the wall behind the screen will be darker stones and darker blinds so I'm not as worried about it). Is this far enough away not to worry? I'm flexible on screen size and viewer location. PJ would be about 17' feet back from the screen on the back wall.

2. I read that getting a highly retro-reflective screen would help here. Is that true, and is the Da-Lite HP the best example of such? Do the HP screens have better/worse black level than the grayish screens I was initially considering (Firehawk, etc.)? Screen MUST be rollup manual/electric, and since it will be unrolled in front of the plasma+back wall, it should not be permeable to light.

Black level is very important to me. (My budget for a PJ would be in the range of a PT-AE3000, hence this forum.) If I can't make it work given these constraints, I'll just stick with the plasma. (Come to think of it, maybe I should look locally for a place that will rent me a PJ/screen so I can see first...)

Im using the PT-AE3000 with white ceiling, and cream walls.

The wall behind the screen is dark brown.

On the left side at night I drop two roller blinds to the floor, these cover a wall of glass doors to the garden and probably help the blacks a bit.

I have the projector approx 4.5M back from the screen & properly callibrated for the room.

My image is far better than most, but I always have ALL lights OFF when screening, thats one thing Im very strict about.

My two screens are matte white and still the image is amazing.

(see attachment)

It does look better with DLP, but I hate rainbows.

As you can see with my two screens, the auto zoom memory on the PT-AE3000 is still the best projector for me at this stage.

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Jason Turk

· #4 · Jul 25, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by merzbow /forum/post/16884025

I am toying with getting a PJ and screen to complement my existing plasma for watching movies. I am reasonably confident I can deal with incoming ambient light, but one thing that won't change is the white walls, ceilings and curtains. Observations/questions (I've read previous threads on the subject but want comments on my specific situation):

1. The room is very large, with a peaked ceiling, so said white walls and ceiling would be about 5-10 feet away from any side of the screen (the wall behind the screen will be darker stones and darker blinds so I'm not as worried about it). Is this far enough away not to worry? I'm flexible on screen size and viewer location. PJ would be about 17' feet back from the screen on the back wall.

2. I read that getting a highly retro-reflective screen would help here. Is that true, and is the Da-Lite HP the best example of such? Do the HP screens have better/worse black level than the grayish screens I was initially considering (Firehawk, etc.)? Screen MUST be rollup manual/electric, and since it will be unrolled in front of the plasma+back wall, it should not be permeable to light.

Black level is very important to me. (My budget for a PJ would be in the range of a PT-AE3000, hence this forum.) If I can't make it work given these constraints, I'll just stick with the plasma. (Come to think of it, maybe I should look locally for a place that will rent me a PJ/screen so I can see first...)

Ambient light is the enemy of front projection, whether from windows, lamps or light colors. If black levels are critical, I'd go gray (positive gain ideally).

Though your white walls are distant, as far as "light" is concerned, 5-10 feet is meaningless. To experiment, close all windows/doors and make it dark. Now turn on a lamp...see what happens. Even a 60 watt light will make black levels, well, not black. Now put a 200-300 watt lamp from a projector onto a diffuse surface, well, you do the math.

R Harkness

· #5 · Jul 25, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk /forum/post/16886696

Though your white walls are distant, as far as "light" is concerned, 5-10 feet is meaningless.

Jason, I'm trying to make that gel with much of the discussion that has gone on with people trying various room treatments. As you know, quite a number of folks with light colored rooms have experimented by adding dark material (e.g. velvet) on the ceiling/floor/walls near their projection screen. Numerous folks have reported excellent increases in black level/contrast. As well, it seems that, in terms of how how far out from the screen wall people place dark material, the returns start diminishing. Often stated as between 6 to 9 feet or so, at which point extending further toward the back of the room doesn't seem to make appreciable gains. Even with a back wall that is lighter colored.

It makes sense we also wouldn't want our back wall - the wall directly facing the screen - to be light. But I've been under the impression that, nonetheless, the surfaces in immediate proximity (as mentioned above) are more of a concern.

This being the case, I'm not sure how to understand your "5-10 feet is meaningless" comment. Could you clarify? Thanks.

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Jason Turk

· #6 · Jul 25, 2009

Maybe "meaningless" was a bit harsh. Essentially, having black (or dark at least) near the screen will indeed help the contrast as it cuts down on direct reflections on the screen surface. That is pretty well known. My point was more about black levels and general ambient light. As we all know (and I stated) ambient light is the so called enemy of front projection. Black is not a color, but rather the lack of light. So if there is light in the room, black cannot truly be black. Sorry if I was confusing in my answer.

merzbow

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jul 25, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk /forum/post/16886696

Ambient light is the enemy of front projection, whether from windows, lamps or light colors. If black levels are critical, I'd go gray (positive gain ideally).

Though your white walls are distant, as far as "light" is concerned, 5-10 feet is meaningless. To experiment, close all windows/doors and make it dark. Now turn on a lamp...see what happens. Even a 60 watt light will make black levels, well, not black. Now put a 200-300 watt lamp from a projector onto a diffuse surface, well, you do the math.

I did this experiment with my plasma last night while watching a movie in the dark. On bright scenes, I looked around my room at the ceilings, walls, etc. Lit them up like a billboard. I can definitely see how the reflections off white surfaces can cause havoc.

RapalloAV

· #8 · Jul 25, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by merzbow /forum/post/16887323

I did this experiment with my plasma last night while watching a movie in the dark. On bright scenes, I looked around my room at the ceilings, walls, etc. Lit them up like a billboard. I can definitely see how the reflections off white surfaces can cause havoc.

Im not sure, I might be wrong, but I thought the initial post about wall/ceiling colour was probably in a lounge room or similar.

I think what we have to look at when answering peoples questions on wall/ceiling colours for living rooms (not bat caves) is to offer ideas that all the family, including wife can live with.

We all know exactly what colour we need to paint the room in to get great blacks, but who else in the house can live with black ceilings and walls in the lounge. The Adams Family might cope nicely but most would end in divorse!

Still the luxury of a dedicated separate room just for HT, that we can paint whatever colour "we" want is still far off for most. I would love to have that extra spare room to set up "my" HT and turn it into the bat cave, but for now need to get the most out of lighter shades of decoration.

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merzbow

Discussion Starter · #9 · Jul 25, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV /forum/post/16887521

Still the luxury of a dedicated separate room just for HT, that we can paint whatever colour "we" want is still far off for most. I would love to have that extra spare room to set up "my" HT and turn it into the bat cave, but for now need to get the most out of lighter shades of decoration.

Your system looks nice. How would you compare your black levels to a top-of-the-line plasma like a Kuro? Would you be able to take a picture of your screen while viewing a high-contrast image in the dark so I can get idea of what such a setup can deliver?

RapalloAV

· #10 · Jul 25, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by merzbow /forum/post/16887552

Your system looks nice. How would you compare your black levels to a top-of-the-line plasma like a Kuro? Would you be able to take a picture of your screen while viewing a high-contrast image in the dark so I can get idea of what such a setup can deliver?

I will look at doing that for you later when its dark, but I think its a bit of a waste of time really, why????

A 50" plasma will always look different to the image on a 120" 16.9 front projection screen and a 3.2M wide SCOPE screen that Im using. These are large, the 50" plasma is a postage stamp in comparison.

My 50" plasma that you can see below my two screens has a totally different look to my 3000 and the blacks are much more dynamic. The only way they would look similar is to zoom the 3000 all the way down to a 50" size, to make a far test. Then I know it would look similar, but who buys a projector and uses it on a 50" screen?

As I said earlier, if you want even better blacks there are other projectors that can deliver the goods, but the wall/ceiling colours remain the same.

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merzbow

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jul 26, 2009

I went to Magnolia today. They had a PJ demo room with close-in whitish walls and ceiling. Even despite that, and some ambient light coming in from the tinted doors, contrast on mixed scenes was surprisingly good. I think this may actually be possible.

R Harkness

· #12 · Jul 26, 2009

I think it depends on personal expectations too.

Before I started my current home theater reno I was using an old Panasonic 720p projector in a room with bright reflective yellow walls, cream carpet and white ceilings. Not only that: There was a huge hallway opening on one side with no door so the room couldn't be closed off. Plus the big bay windows in the room, facing the screen, had no blinds so the street lights would glow in the windows and introduce even more ambient light.

That's about as bad as it gets, short of just turning lights on in the room.

And yet much of the time the image looked fantastic, with family and friends in awe.

Go figure.

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merzbow

Discussion Starter · #13 · Jul 26, 2009

After reading this review here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773065

I think the Da-Lite High Power screen may be best. It's affordable and widely available. Plus I can easily locate the projector near eye-level on the back wall. Its retro-reflective properties would seem to drastically reduce worries about reflections off the side walls and ceiling (although the back wall may be a concern?)

The Panasonic PT-AE3000 is looking like a very good choice also.

RapalloAV

· #14 · Jul 26, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by merzbow /forum/post/16888933

After reading this review here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773065

I think the Da-Lite High Power screen may be best. It's affordable and widely available. Plus I can easily locate the projector near eye-level on the back wall. Its retro-reflective properties would seem to drastically reduce worries about reflections off the side walls and ceiling (although the back wall may be a concern?)

The Panasonic PT-AE3000 is looking like a very good choice also.

That thread was written in 2006, projectors have vastly changed since then. The PT AE3000 has heaps more lumen's than most HT projectors and doesn't really require a highly reflective screen to get good results.

Different screens are designed for different projectors and purposes. What might be great in one situation, could often be the opposite in another.

merzbow

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jul 26, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV /forum/post/16889242

That thread was written in 2006, projectors have vastly changed since then. The PT AE3000 has heaps more lumen's than most HT projectors and doesn't really require a highly reflective screen to get good results.

Different screens are designed for different projectors and purposes. What might be great in one situation, could often be the opposite in another.

You may be right, I don't think lumens will be an issue here. I don't want to pay 3 grand for a Firehawk either. Can anyone recommend a good positive-gain grey screen that comes in manual pulldown? (I don't see any from Da-lite).

RapalloAV

· #16 · Jul 26, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by merzbow /forum/post/16889424

You may be right, I don't think lumens will be an issue here. I don't want to pay 3 grand for a Firehawk either. Can anyone recommend a good positive-gain grey screen that comes in manual pulldown? (I don't see any from Da-lite).

First what size screen are you thinking of and what distance is the projector to be from the screen?

merzbow

Discussion Starter · #17 · Jul 26, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV /forum/post/16889433

First what size screen are you thinking of and what distance is the projector to be from the screen?

Size-wise, perhaps 110 diag. PJ will be 17' away. I'm not set on manual, I could do electric also, but I'm not going to spend thousands on the screen, and a manual would be fine. I've done some searching but can't find any screen that fits my criteria so far (positive-gain gray as recommended by Jason, not fixed, non-outrageous cost).

RapalloAV

· #18 · Jul 26, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by merzbow /forum/post/16889459

Size-wise, perhaps 110 diag. PJ will be 17' away. I'm not set on manual, I could do electric also, but I'm not going to spend thousands on the screen, and a manual would be fine. I've done some searching but can't find any screen that fits my criteria so far (positive-gain gray as recommended by Jason, not fixed, non-outrageous cost).

Size wise 110" is not very large, as I said my smaller 16.9 screen is 120" matte white. With cream walls and white ceiling, the image is BRIGHT and my blacks are great!!!!

My scope screen is even larger and I have HEAPS of light on the sheet!

Personally I wouldn't dream of using a Grey screen in your case (110"), matte white reproduces truer colors.

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merzbow

Discussion Starter · #19 · Jul 26, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV /forum/post/16889480

Size wise 110" is not very large, as I said my smaller 16.9 screen is 120" matte white. With cream walls and white ceiling, the image is BRIGHT and my blacks are great!!!!

My scope screen is even larger and I have HEAPS of light on the sheet!

Personally I wouldn't dream of using a Grey screen in your case (110"), matte white reproduces truer colors.

According to the PJ calculator, at 17' and 110" the Panasonic is toward the left edge of acceptable, so I'm hesitant to go larger, plus I really can't anyways because of other stuff in the way. But I'm not sure how accurate this calculator is. From a review I read, the Panny can do 450 lumens in cinema mode and 792 in normal mode, which according to the review is almost as good as cinema.

I just happened upon these Focupix electric screens. The prices looked too good to be true, but all the reviews I've read have been positive. I'm partial to going with their 0.9 gain gray. Still uneasy about going plain-jane white because I really want those fine black levels.

RapalloAV

· #20 · Jul 26, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by merzbow /forum/post/16889485

According to the PJ calculator, at 17' and 110" the Panasonic is toward the left edge of acceptable, so I'm hesitant to go larger, plus I really can't anyways because of other stuff in the way. But I'm not sure how accurate this calculator is. From a review I read, the Panny can do 450 lumens in cinema mode and 792 in normal mode, which according to the review is almost as good as cinema.

I just happened upon these Focupix electric screens. The prices looked too good to be true, but all the reviews I've read have been positive. I'm partial to going with their 0.9 gain gray. Still uneasy about going plain-jane white because I really want those fine black levels.

You will find that probably most people using the 3000 don't even use any of the cinema settings now, you only need to read the 3000 thread to see that. I would say that 80% switched to NORMAL after they tested the cinema settings, the colour may-not be so accurate but the image really does have more pop on NORMAL. I think also the blacks look much better!

You do need a smaller screen if you used the cinema settings as the image is a bit dim. If you want the wow factor and some pop in the image the only setting is NORMAL. Hence the reason most changed to NORMAL settings after they purchased the projector, me included!

Using a Grey screen is unnecessary on NORMAL.

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