[Colmino]

I have recently been dealt a possibly fatal blow to my quest for a 40-46" TV that satisfies my three criteria (low input lag, 1080p with no color subsampling, and no dealbreaking negatives such as Sharp-style cloudy artifacts). Panasonic came so close. Every one of their TVs seems like something I might want to invest in, except that each and every one shown on Panasonic's website carries the same flaw: they DO subsample the color, meaning 1080p PC and gaming use is as good as worthless. (Unless, I suppose, one sits so far back from their TV - at all times - that it may as well have been a 540p panel.)


This conclusion is not set in stone. But the fact is that all of the manuals for the 2009-2010 models shown specify identical capabilities with regard to input.


However! There is hope, as this article reveals:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...comment-447097


It is mentioned that certain past Panasonic models reproduced 4:4:4 color just fine. But the model numbers aren't specified. And good luck finding that information anywhere online, let alone in the manuals themselves which are of course ambiguous on the subject.


I was surprised when this research effort ended up taking perhaps longer than any other A/V-related hunt I've undertaken. But nothing could have braced me for the unbelievable circumstance of literally failing to find a single TV that fits the bill, even with some reasonable compromises. This may be my last hope. If I succeed, then the information ought to be useful to tons of folks. If I fail, then perhaps at least companies like Panasonic, who have come very close, may take the hint and change two lines of code in their software to re-enable 4:4:4 color for the 2011 models. Perhaps.

 

[BoilerJim]

Write them a letter and say please, please, please...

 

[rogo]

I'm genuinely confused here: How does "subsampling the color" make gaming worthless?

 

[Colmino]

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling


It reduces the color resolution by half. Doesn't matter if you're watching DVD or OTA. Might matter if you're watching Bluray (depends on the quality of your player). Absolutely matters for PC use. As for gaming, well, think about it. Let's say you're playing Castlevania: Harmony of Despair in 1080p. The screen is scrolling left smoothly. The color will look like it's sort of crawling to and fro. Edges of objects will look blurry - certainly not as good as they could. The only solution would be to sit far enough away from the TV that you're only able to discern about 960x540 resolution.

 

[lyris]

Hey Colmino - I'm David Mackenzie from HDTVtest. To answer your question, last year's European V10 models did 4:4:4. It would drop to 4:2:2 if you enabled "Intelligent Frame Creation" or "24p Smooth Film". There is some video processor in there which is limiting the chroma bandwidth. It seems that that processor is active more often on the 2010 models, perhaps as a result of Panasonic adding a Colour Management System.


Panasonic are the only AV brand I know of that actually mention high res chroma and its benefits (in their BD Players). I will put this to them and hope 2011 brings us an improvement.

 

[Colmino]



Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris /forum/post/19317668


Hey Colmino - I'm David Mackenzie from HDTVtest. To answer your question, last year's European V10 models did 4:4:4.

Thanks for the information. So far, then, my information adds up to produce:


1) All 2010 models that I have either personally tested or have heard conclusive data on.. fail to do 4:4:4.

2) The only 2009 model I have heard yea/nay about DOES do 4:4:4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris /forum/post/19317668


It seems that that processor is active more often on the 2010 models, perhaps as a result of Panasonic adding a Colour Management System.

This guess seems like a good one. I would be willing to speculate, barring proof to the contrary, that all of their 2009 models can do 4:4:4. There is unfortunately no way for me to test this, and I don't see myself mail-ordering a TV as a gamble. (Besides which, I was just remembering that Panasonic only made ONE LCD TV in 2009 over 40" large, and that model doesn't have a game mode. Its input lag was measured to be 2-3 frames.)


What we really need is a dedicated thread providing close-up proof as to the nature of color support in HDTVs, like they have for the issue of input lag. These are two sides of the same coin. Panasonic's conspicuous and pointless failure in 2010 underscores the severity of the issue.

 

[lyris]

I'm just glad Panasonic's 2010 displays didn't feature an increase in input lag (cough, Samsung). THAT would be a huge dent in the hood.

 

[rogo]

I would think that the "input lag" described in the other thread would make gaming impossible. Apparent decreases in color resolution, on the other hand, would be troublesome and annoying and something manufacturers should avoid if possible -- but not fatal.

 

[Colmino]



Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo /forum/post/19317880


Apparent decreases in color resolution, on the other hand, would be troublesome and annoying and something manufacturers should avoid if possible -- but not fatal.

You didn't see what I saw. Sitting a "normal" distance from these TVs would doubtless render the imagery watchable. But we're talking about PC use. No way.

 

[rogo]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Colmino /forum/post/19317912


You didn't see what I saw. Sitting a "normal" distance from these TVs would doubtless render the imagery watchable. But we're talking about PC use. No way.

I thought we were talking about gaming. I'm not hardcore, but I have certainly played some modern PC games... at various resolutions... so I'm just not clear how they go to "no way" with an apparent lowering of resolution. I'm not doubting you, but I am pretty confused.

 

[Colmino]

Well, take a look at the first image here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1202558


Although the actual cause behind the chroma anomaly in that image isn't specifically the same thing as 4:2:2 subsampling, nonetheless what I saw was almost identical. What was ostensibly a one-pixel-thick red vertical line was either thin or fat (and smeared), depending on where it was drawn; as it moved across the screen, it alternated between thin and fat.


Take a look at my idealized simulation of 4:2:2 subsampling, from my other thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...1&d=1286786576


This is a close-up of my special modification of the Belle-Nuit test chart. Although the color smearing is not so apparent, you can still tell where the once uniform nature of the red lines has been compromised, particularly where they are separated by two black pixels. Other colors are washed out and bleed into one another. Compare that (on the right) with what was, originally, razor sharp color accuracy (on the left).


It might be best to think of it as part of the technical specs, like so:


* IPS-Alpha panel with true 174 degree viewing

* Full array LED backlighting with local dimming

* Colors are not destroyed


See, without that "feature", colors are destroyed. Is it so wrong to wish games to look as good as the Xbox 360 is capable of making them? Or the PC desktop to be accurately represented, as opposed to, well, not?

 

[work4mike]

This is a pretty educational thread for me personally.


Thanks to Colmino for the very good technical content of this thread.


So, which HDTV potentially may come close to your requirements?

 

[Colmino]



Quote:
Originally Posted by work4mike /forum/post/19328056


This is a pretty educational thread for me personally.


Thanks to Colmino for the very good technical content of this thread.


So, which HDTV potentially may come close to your requirements?

Ironically, as I am about to reveal in a new thread, the el-cheapo rebranded Sharp model, which kickstarted my quest for a new TV in the first place, may be what I settle upon for the time being. That post is forthcoming.

 

[Lord Humongous]

One possible solution would be to not buy a TV but a business display. These are the large displays you can see everywhere with advertising or information. Check out Nec V421 or the Philips BDL4225E. The former is explicitly stated to be an IPS panel, the latter isnt but its contrast ratio indicates that it is an IPS and not a xVA. These displays have DVI, HDMI, VGA and 5-BNC inputs. I guess they have very little in terms of onboard processing since they are intended to be driven by a PC computer.

 

[thepoohcontinuum]

Colmino, back in the input lag wars thread, you had asked me to do a 4:4:4 test on my LG 32LD450. I decided to post my result in this thread, as our discussion in the input lag wars thread was going off topic.


So following your directions, here's what I came up with. Did I do the test right? If so, does my display pass the 4:4:4 test?

 

[work4mike]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Colmino /forum/post/19328109


Ironically, as I am about to reveal in a new thread, the el-cheapo rebranded Sharp model, which kickstarted my quest for a new TV in the first place, may be what I settle upon for the time being. That post is forthcoming.

I sure hope it is a 46inch or greater panel...I am definitely and eagerly awaiting your forthcoming post. I intend to use the panel as a dedicated "internet tv" setup via a HTPC.


Pls tag your new thread link here on this existing thread as well since I am subscribed here...

 

[work4mike]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Humongous /forum/post/19355147


One possible solution would be to not buy a TV but a business display. These are the large displays you can see everywhere with advertising or information. Check out Nec V421 or the Philips BDL4225E. The former is explicitly stated to be an IPS panel, the latter isnt but its contrast ratio indicates that it is an IPS and not a xVA. These displays have DVI, HDMI, VGA and 5-BNC inputs. I guess they have very little in terms of onboard processing since they are intended to be driven by a PC computer.

How about this NEC panel? The V461 is 46 inch much more to my liking.
http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/P...1-3c3db07cc177


I assume it is also an IPS panel, but I cannot be sure... Can you pls check?


There is also a V461-2 listed and the difference is simply the -2 model adds 15W rear-mounted speakers.


Finally, there is a X series "High Brite" HB model: X461HB. This takes the crown. It can add an embedded computer board (commodity x86-based Single Board Computer) and run say, an OS, Windows XP or any of your choice, and do Internet TV to your heart's content.

http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/P...8-90e7eea83261


The SBC module info: http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/docume...essRelease.pdf


BUT, the price is like > 3x. Ouch!!

 

[Colmino]



Quote:
Originally Posted by thepoohcontinuum /forum/post/19356235


So following your directions, here's what I came up with. Did I do the test right? If so, does my display pass the 4:4:4 test?

You did a remarkable job - much better than I managed, although I'm going to lay the blame on my camera, combined with the basic inability to bring a tripod to Sears. I could never get closeups like that. Anyway, it is very clear that you are getting 4:4:4 color. This is a surprising result, as will be made clear when I make my followup post in the input lag thread.


I am also gobsmacked by the straight-up clarity of the pixels. WYSIWYG. I can say with confidence that I have never laid eyes on any TV in any store which managed what you're showing me with that display. Perhaps I will have to forego modern pleasures like 24Hz...


I'd love to see another shot less zoomed in (but still able to discern pixels, more or less).

 

[De3k]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Colmino /forum/post/19356561


You did a remarkable job - much better than I managed, although I'm going to lay the blame on my camera, combined with the basic inability to bring a tripod to Sears. I could never get closeups like that. Anyway, it is very clear that you are getting 4:4:4 color. This is a surprising result, as will be made clear when I make my followup post in the input lag thread.


I am also gobsmacked by the straight-up clarity of the pixels. WYSIWYG. I can say with confidence that I have never laid eyes on any TV in any store which managed what you're showing me with that display. Perhaps I will have to forego modern pleasures like 24Hz...


I'd love to see another shot less zoomed in (but still able to discern pixels, more or less).

So I take it, then, that this is a good result for the 32LD450?

I have my eye on a LD450 "WHO" (the last three characters of the service code), the exact same panel thepoohcontinuum is testing. It's looking more and more like a safe bet in the 4:4:4/low lag category.

 

[Lord Humongous]



Quote:
Originally Posted by work4mike /forum/post/19356447


How about this NEC panel? The V461 is 46 inch much more to my liking.
http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/P...1-3c3db07cc177


I assume it is also an IPS panel, but I cannot be sure... Can you pls check?

The stated size (46") and the contrast (3000:1) indicates that it is an xVA panel. As far as I know there are no manufacturers that make a 46" IPS panel. IPS panels also have a (static) contrast ratio around 1000:1. As a general rule of thumb, panels in 40", 46" and 52" size are always xVA and panels in 47" size are always IPS. YMMV though so keep your eyes open.