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Why Apple should get in the 1080P display business.

1098 Views 11 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  gmwedding
My recent 1080P LCD adventures, plus research into the nascent 120Hz technology has lead me to realize that there is a HUGE void in the existing 1080P LCD product line, namely a high quality display that is meant to be attached to an HTPC.


1) Most brand name displays, to the extent that they have considered the needs of HTPC users, have slapped a VGA port on there (which may or may not support 1080P, and left it at that). For most dedicated Mac users, VGA went away years ago along with the floppy and the horse drawn buggy -- we have been using DVI-D for years, and going back to analog is anathema.


2) There are some off brand displays that have obviously given the PC user greater consideration, but they have other problems, such as comparatively poor LCD picture quality, poor design, reliability and support issues.


3) Newer technology is not going to solve these issues: the upcoming 120Hz 1080P LCDs for instance may display at 120Hz, but they don't accept input at 120Hz -- they take the same old 60Hz over HDMI and then play games with it. And *STILL* feature their obsolete VGA PC ports. (Source: I looked at the Cruchfield listing for Toshiba 120Hz 1080Ps, as well reading ang about 120Hz sets at Gizmodo and elsewhere).


4) All of these sets are burdened with junk nobody needs, like tuners: how many people hook up an antenna or clear QAM cable directly to their TV? Most have a cable box, a satellite box, a DVR, etc. Composite video? For a multi thousand $$ 1080P set -- why?? Even speakers are arguably superflous.


This can be addressed by Apple (or someone else, but really, I don't see who -- Sony the next best candidate is too obsessed with DRM to do it right).


The device would resemble a computer monitor like an Apple Cinema Display more than a TV. It won't have a tuner or analog support, or speakers or other junk. It will differ from existing ACDs with larger size, but lower DPI to keep costs down and conform with the standard 1080P resolution. It will have a DVI port for HTPCs or plain PCs for people using it as a regular computer monitor. HDMI for HDCP burdened devices such HD-DVD/Blu-ray/upscaling DVD players and game machines PS3, etc. And Firewire for virtual or otherwise D-VHS and future-proofing if one day it finally occurs to the powers that be what a disaster HDMI is -- video input could easily be routed over Firewire.


Not only will the display be 120/100Hz, but the DVI input will be able to sync at 120Hz or at 100Hz or 60/50Hz, thus being useful in Europe as well where it must handle 50/100Hz PAL material.


Apple (and third parties) can sell matching accessories such as self powered speakers for those who need them.


But most important will be, call it the AppleTV 2 which will have modular plug in ability to serve as anything from a tuner to an analog (say component) to digital converter to HDMI/DVI switching for multiple inputs, to support for the mythical CableCard 2 or even more mythical future tech. It will keep featureitice away from the display itself.


Apple could start with just the display itself -- it will initially be a limited audience product targeted at HTPC/Mac/PC users who are tired of fighting TVs that treat them as an afterthought. Once the AppleTV2 comes on line, the combination of the two will open this up to the entire market, concentrating on those willing to pay a premium for high display quality combined with Apple's "It Just Works" and design quality.


Ultimately, we are in a place similar to the pre-iPod MP3 market. The technology exists, but no one has come along to put all the pieces together and make it usable by ordinary human beings.
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You raise some very good points, Ted, but, of course, the question is: is Apple listening?


I found a very interesting article here that really seems to point the blame at the hdmi standard.


As far as Europe, we are way behind you. Here in the Netherlands, we still don't have HDTV (maybe some exceptions) and HD and BluRay are around, but very few are offered and very few people are buying them. I did a search on a shopping comparison site here for flat TVs and looking for HD sets, it came up with only four. Most of the sets are called HD-ready.


It would be nice if Apple or another company offered the set you want. However, as the article I linked above points out, a lot of the problems have come about because the content industry wants protection. If that could end, we could probably get what you want.

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My recent 1080P LCD adventures, plus research into the nascent 120Hz technology has lead me to realize that there is a HUGE void in the existing 1080P LCD product line, namely a high quality display that is meant to be attached to an HTPC.

Ted, surely you realize that very few people actually have an "HTPC" and use it as such, and even fewer understand what the term "native resolution" of a display means. There's no HTPC void, let alone a huge one, with such an emerging technology--it's too new--folks at home are just starting to come to grips with high def in a general sense, buying their first HDTV of some sort, and more often than not their selection is based on price (which rules out 1080p) and they're relying on their cable company to hook them up anyway. If my friends and neighbors are any indication, that's initially happening over component because DVI and HDMI, in the minds of the cable companies, can be tricky to support.

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For most dedicated Mac users, VGA went away years ago along with the floppy and the horse drawn buggy -- we have been using DVI-D for years, and going back to analog is anathema.

I think you're a little out of touch with this as well, at least with respect to Macs and the various types of HDTVs, of which LCD is but one subset: VGA has been the savior for many a current Mac HT user precisely, and ironically, because it's "less" of an emerging technology. It's been a very good thing that digital display manufacturers "slapped" a old VGA port on their TVs--we've had countless reports of Mac users who had all sorts of DVI-related troubles and DisplayConfigX and SwitchRes hassles who eventually solved them after a lot of pain simply by going VGA...and we've heard from others who WISHED their sets had VGA. These are "cutting edge" home theater types, since if they're posting here and trying to connect a Mac to their HDTV, they're in the distinct minority.

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All of these sets are burdened with junk nobody needs, like tuners: how many people hook up an antenna or clear QAM cable directly to their TV? Most have a cable box, a satellite box, a DVR, etc. Composite video? For a multi thousand $$ 1080P set -- why?

Again, I think you're letting your enthusiasm and recent research into this cloud your judgment a little, you still have to think in terms of lowest common denominator--and folks at home still think in terms of Consumer Electronic devices, that a display is just like a stereo or dvd player that has to get connected and can be swapped in or out. Plenty of homeowners eventually ask themselves whether they need to keep paying their cable company as much as they do, and they experiment with a splitter, figuring out what their set can and can't tune in. But, I do agree completely that your logic is leading up to the fact that consumers are still waiting for someone, anyone, to tie everything together for them so they don't have to manage a jumble of competing, often contradictory CE devices, and don't have to trust a provider like a Comcast to do what's right. There's too much pent up ill will toward those companies.


Which brings us to Apple, and, well, I think Apple has already released its underwhelming "it just works" answer to connecting to an HDTV, LCD or otherwise. It's called aTV. Personally, I've never believed any of the hype surrounding new larger Apple branded displays--too expensive, too emerging a technology, too costly to ship and warehouse "in" their stores. We'll see how that plays out, but from a business standpoint I'm not sure I see the upside.

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This can be addressed by Apple (or someone else, but really, I don't see who -- Sony the next best candidate is too obsessed with DRM to do it right).

You're possibly deluding yourself or viewing Apple through the RDF if you think Apple is significantly less DRM obsessed when it comes to HDCP or honoring video content protections. Sure, with respect to audio on the Apple side we've never encountered anything as dastardly as a Sony rootkit, but with video Apple hasn't yet shown us all their cards. Though, the cards they have shown can't be called encouraging wrt DRM--and they're still taking baby steps.


Here's the real problem, though: when you consider the older laptop hardware Apple uses in its most affordable models, the Macs the majority of its customers would most likely connect to one of these proposed displays (especially the woefully outdated specs of the Mac mini) and add that to its uneven DVI implementation so far, it probably augurs against Apple succeeding along the lines you speculate. They're probably smart enough to realize the folly of even trying with the specs and content delivery options still so jumbled. Maybe Leopard will bring some clarity, but so far Apple has moved forward very cautiously into this sphere, and certainly hasn't been on the leading edge of any technology.


That Apple of yore doesn't exist anymore, the company that boldly excised the floppy and boldly pushed firewire--the newer Apple decelerated and/or killed firewire development, switched to Intel and embraced the inferior USB because it made mass market sense, failed to develop its dvdplayer.app, hasn't exactly pushed Quicktime forward, failed to embrace eSATA as it should have, and I'm sure others could weigh in with numerous other examples.


The Apple we know today, when you get away from the current gadget sphere focus and step back into the HT sphere, is more reactive rather than proactive, and perhaps more distracted that we'd like to admit.


And further, I think one problem of the article you linked to is with perspective--the talk of dvi and hdmi long distance runs--frankly isn't a problem, because we'll naturally just stick a Mac or some other extender device right there at the HDTV--and rely on coax and gigabit instead which are infinitely more capable. That article is based on old CE premises, the "your sources at one end of the room and the display at the other" approach.
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Steve,


Maybe I am unduly optimistic -- certainly your view may be the correct one. But is the subset of people who wish to connect a PC to a large LCD -- call it an HDTV, really so small? If it is, maybe it has to do with the level of pain involved.


But for this to be worth it to Apple, they just need a potential customer base as large as or larger than they have for their current Apple Cinema Display line. A very low risk way to test the market would be releasing a 40", 1080P ACD, which would be plug and play with any DVI Mac and would have a HDMI port for AppleTV compatibility as well. Nothing, else -- no tuners, no analog, no R&D investment to speak of. If nothing else, this would allow them to stop promoting Sony in Apple Stores and have their display AppleTVs hooked up to the new ACDs.


I suspect they might be more successful than they (or you) suspect, and a lot of frustrated PC users may end buying them.


Another point -- Apple's customer base has a disproportionate number of (young) urban dwellers for whom space is at a premium and would love to combine computer display & TV into one. Right now the only product Apple offer them is the 24" iMac -- but that's kind of small. A 40" ACD + a Mini (or whatever Mac/PC they already have) would fill a niche for a lot of people.


The one of the immediate advantages these ACDs would offer over any existing consumer HDTV is setup -- most of these sets require painful expeditions through service menus for setup, especially for colors. The new ACDs will come configured just the same as the existing ones -- everything looks perfect right out of the box, there is no service menu, just the single brightness control, with ColorSync there for professional photographers only.
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Originally Posted by Further /forum/post/0


As far as Europe, we are way behind you. Here in the Netherlands, we still don't have HDTV (maybe some exceptions) and HD and BluRay are around, but very few are offered and very few people are buying them. I did a search on a shopping comparison site here for flat TVs and looking for HD sets, it came up with only four. Most of the sets are called HD-ready.

HD-ready simply means there is no built in tuner -- what I'm proposing is "HD-ready" by that definition. Anything with a 1080P resolution is most certainly HD, whether it has a tuner or not.


BTW, Bang & Olufsen are offering just such "screen only" setups, only they are huge, plasma and outrageously expensive. Apple's could be smaller, cheaper, more useful and equally elegant.

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Originally Posted by Ted Todorov /forum/post/0


Steve,


Maybe I am unduly optimistic -- certainly your view may be the correct one. But is the subset of people who wish to connect a PC to a large LCD -- call it an HDTV, really so small? If it is, maybe it has to do with the level of pain involved.

I think that a place like AVS can really collapse or compress a very niche audience into a space where we feel like we have a far greater presence than we do. I haven't seen any real market numbers on how many people actually have an htpc that they use as such (not just a game box). On the Mac side, I really think that chefklc hits the nail on the head. we really are too insignificant of a market share to think that Apple will deliver a product as exotic as a 37-42" ACD for the HT crowd. They may release a larger than 30" ACD for the pro crowd (but not 1080p), or even a Quad HD screen for scientific/medical/CAD/producer crowd (but probably not). I just think that the Mac HT sphere is too undefined and immature for Apple to go there.


Sure, I'd love to see them to do it. I just don't think they will. More likely we'll get the equivalent of a 27" iMac next--when Apple refreshes the iMac line (Leopard delay??). I just have to look at my westy 37w3, that I got for a bit under $1k, to see what sort of competition that Apple is up against here. It is a great display for the money--not the best picture, or electronics, but it is versatile. If I had to choose between it and a greater than $2k 37" Apple, it would be a no brainer to avoid the Apple. This display does everything I need. 1080p video displays are headed for commoditization in a big way. There will be huge competitive pressures to drive displays under $1k in the next few years, and judging by what I am seeing already with displays like my westy, there will be quality, inexpensive sets hitting the shores by the boatload (literally). So where is Apple's competitive edge in delivering a display that can sell into that market? Very narrow for a company that has always delivered over priced displays.


I think to put the market size in perspective, I can look to my own community. There are about 100,000 people, and I think that you could count on both hands and feet the number of people that are running a true htpc setup that know what they are doing. I am one of the few Mac gurus around here (20 years of supporting the Mac community), and no one, not even any of the video producers I work with who use Macs, have their Mac hooked up to their home video screen. None of the local HT or appliance/tv shops have a Mac hooked up to a computer for display. Nor does the local Best Buy. We really are a very small minority (though vocal through AVS).


I had to laugh last week because our local high end audio video shop put an ad in the paper because they were going to do some demos. What were the demos? Showing how a Mac running iTunes really was inferior to CD's because 128kbps AAC or mp3 files are compressed and throw out sound quality!! Think about it: a shop that sells $5k+ audio/video systems having to educate people who spend that much money that the songs on their iPods from the iTS don't sound as good as real CD's. I just laughed, and almost went down to see the demo, but I don't think I could have kept my mouth shut. So the high end shop doesn't think that the high end crowd even understands or can hear the difference between lossless and lossy compression. Wait, lets see how the demo on "near DVD quality" video from the iTS vs. HD goes over. Unbelievable. Sell them an Apple big screen? When margins woud be much higher on a Sony or Panny? Why try?


Anyways, I'll leave you with this photo that I saw earlier this week, that may go a long ways towards explaining why Apple is the way it is (yea, that is Apple Director Al Gore with THREE 30" ACD's and some non descript HD display in the background). Why build a bigger one when 2 or 3 will do the same thing???

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Originally Posted by Ted Todorov /forum/post/0


Steve,


Maybe I am unduly optimistic -- certainly your view may be the correct one. But is the subset of people who wish to connect a PC to a large LCD -- call it an HDTV, really so small? If it is, maybe it has to do with the level of pain involved.

My personal point of view is that people just don't want computers in their living rooms. The market for a large HD-monitor targeted at the HTPC crowd is just too small for Apple to consider. I don't think it's a difficultly issue, either. I found it to be extremely easy to set my HDTV up with a Macbook (Sharp 46D62U, in case you're wondering). No fuss, no muss.

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But for this to be worth it to Apple, they just need a potential customer base as large as or larger than they have for their current Apple Cinema Display line. A very low risk way to test the market would be releasing a 40", 1080P ACD, which would be plug and play with any DVI Mac and would have a HDMI port for AppleTV compatibility as well. Nothing, else -- no tuners, no analog, no R&D investment to speak of. If nothing else, this would allow them to stop promoting Sony in Apple Stores and have their display AppleTVs hooked up to the new ACDs.

A 40" 1080p ACD would be a step backwards. How would Apple explain why a 40" monitor has much less resolution than a 30" monitor. They could say that it's designed for the living room ... but then where's the ATSC/NTSC/QAM tuners? You asked who uses the built-in tuners on their TVs. I think many people actually do. I don't have a cable box, but even if I did, I would still run a coax to the TV so that I could record two channels and watch a third (on the TV's tuner).

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Another point -- Apple's customer base has a disproportionate number of (young) urban dwellers for whom space is at a premium and would love to combine computer display & TV into one. Right now the only product Apple offer them is the 24" iMac -- but that's kind of small. A 40" ACD + a Mini (or whatever Mac/PC they already have) would fill a niche for a lot of people.

What would Apple price this 40" 1080p monitor at? They Would have to price it lower than the 40/42" Sharp and Sammy 1080p (about $2000) since it doesn't have tuners. Of course, there may be people that are willing to pay a premium for this product, but I would think that number is rather small. The TV business is fast becoming a commodity market. The OEMs are trying their hardest to keep the profit margins up by introducing "features" such as 120mhz, LED backlight, etc. But eventually (I'm thinking 2 years or so), the Chinese factories will end up manufacturing all but the ultimate hi-end TVs and all you'll be able to buy is junk.

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The one of the immediate advantages these ACDs would offer over any existing consumer HDTV is setup -- most of these sets require painful expeditions through service menus for setup, especially for colors. The new ACDs will come configured just the same as the existing ones -- everything looks perfect right out of the box, there is no service menu, just the single brightness control, with ColorSync there for professional photographers only.

I think you are placing too much importance on this. If this is marketed towards technologically savvy consumers, then they wouldn't have too much trouble rooting a couple of menus deep to set the picture the way they like it. It's not a big deal.


I never say never, but I don't think Apple will be making this device any time soon.


ft
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Maybe our difference in perspective comes from where we live. Here in NYC, Macs are ubiquitous and I have more friends who don't have TV in the conventional sense (no cable, etc.) and mainly watch DVDs then those who do have TV. Many of the DVD watchers use their computers to watch them. Were it not for EyeTV I would still be firmly in the no TV camp.

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Originally Posted by Ted Todorov /forum/post/0


Many of the DVD watchers use their computers to watch them.

Ok. So a lot of people watch DVD's on their computers. This is different than people with a home theater hooking a Mac up to it. I can see if you have a computer, and watching DVDs is a common thing, that your next step may be a bigger 1080p display, or a bigger iMac. For instance, here we have a mid-sized university. A lot of poeple watch DVDs on their computers, too. But I don't think that many of them are going outside of the array of general computer displays (or iMacs) and looking for HT displays yet. Most people haven't made the connection between the convergence of the living room (HT) display and the computer display "ne'er the twain shall meet" or gotten over the technkical obstacles for merging the two.


I can see how looking at it from this angle would lead you to want Apple to just give you the next logical step in growing your environment, and why you would want it from Apple and not Sony or other commercial HD display maker. We want to believe that Apple could just "Do It Better." Unfortunately, given the slow track record of Apple to do things like adopt an aggressive iTS strategy complete with HD and full studio support, and put out a computer that it could hook this display to (other than the Mini and a laptop), and full OS/hardware support for things like HDCP, its no wonder that Apple will wait until all of these other things are in place before attempting a full size HT display. They sure aren't going to sell them into a market of Dell and HP users.


Apple needs to create a market to sell the product you want into. And it just isn't making a whole lot of effort to do so, and if it does, there will be a ton of cheap commodity displays to compete against. Maybe we'll get the Apple "HiFi" product approach eventually: a one trick pony 40" Apple HT display for the person who just has to have an Apple branded display in the living room next to the Mini. Damn the cost, specs, or ever upgrading it. But I can just see Jobs announcing it with the next ACD refresh: "Oh, and one more thing, for those that just must have it, we have a 40" 1080p LCD display with DVI and an HDMI port, and a place to plug your Apple HiFi and iPod into it--$2999. In Black for $3199. Shipping in 6 months."
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Again, you are probably right -- but the Apple HiFi is an excellent example. I would never consider it for myself -- have two sets of excellent (and attractive) speakers and Denon receivers.


But when one of my technophobic friends wanted a "Stereo" I got her an Apple HiFi -- she loves it, can't screw it up, and from my point of view it sounds damn good -- better than any "computer" speakers I've ever heard. In fact her set up is quite good -- an Airport Express is hooked up via optical to the Apple Hifi, and she can play music from her MacBook anywhere in the house.


Meanwhile another, equally technophobic friend calls me once every couple of months complaining that her stereo isn't working (some wire/cable got unplugged). I wish she'd get an Apple HiFi.


There really is a market out there for simple but good devices -- that do one thing well. Apple probably decided to make the HiFi when they saw how many Bose boxes they sold through the Apple Store. It they were selling the Sony TVs, an Apple version would materialize in no time...
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This is a great post Ted! You might want to consider updating it to include some of the counterpoints made in this thread and then submit it to Apple here: http://www.apple.com/feedback/ .


Other believers should do the same -- it never hurts to repeat the message...
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