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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Not trying to start a war, just trying to understand. Why are people choosing the Vt25 over the larger Samsungs? From everyting I have read the larger Samsungs have:


1. better black levels(I don't consider the Vt25's initial MLL to be it's true black level)


2. better contrast


3. a slightly cleaner image


4. black levels that don't rise, or float


5. a very good 3D image(for those who care)


6. better processing


7. more pleasing design


8. better filter


9. are hundreds cheaper.


10. More buzzing.



Please help me understand.


DOCUMAKER I know you know a lot about both these.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by neoshredder27 /forum/post/19636289


Some people don't like power line sounds in their house.

Got it. I've never actually heard the buzz. It must be bad. Any comments on my other thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 761-honda /forum/post/19636357


Samsung should step in with a 65 Plasma. I know if they did I would have it instead of my 65 S2. I can see the difference between 63 and 65.

I forgot that. You are correct Samsung only goes up to 63".
 

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This thread is not going to go well! My 2 cents: Samsung has worse buzz, worse temp IR, worse reliabilty, and worse customer service. PQ is pretty similar (Panny bested Samsung by a little in a shoot-out at Value Electronics). Not sure where you heard that Samsung has better contrast, processing, or filter, and it certainly does not have less buzzing. In the end, you won't go wrong with either. Why start threads like this that will ony lead to arguments (unless you have an agenda)? Many here will not buy a Samsung, and many will not buy a Panny, so these types of threads are not very valuable, IMO. Why not just post in the existing threads (the Samsung threads for you, if you like it so much)?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillP
This thread is not going to go well! My 2 cents: Samsung has worse buzz, worse temp IR, worse reliabilty, and worse customer service. PQ is pretty similar (Panny bested Samsung by a little in a shoot-out at Value Electronics). Not sure where you heard that Samsung has better contrast, processing, or filter, and it certainly does not have less buzzing. In the end, you won't go wrong with either. Why start threads like this that will ony lead to arguments (unless you have an agenda)? Many here will not buy a Samsung, and many will not buy a Panny, so these types of threads are not very valuable, IMO. Why not just post in the existing threads (the Samsung threads for you, if you like it so much)?
When I say better contrast I am mainly referring to after Panasonic settles to its actual black level. Regarding the processing, that was mainly from DocuMaker, who seems to have owned every tv ever made at one point or another.
. Anyway, no one really challenges him on this so I assume he is correct. That's why I'm asking.
 

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Panasonic has better reliability, according to Consumer Reports.


BTW, I agree with the above comment that asking this question in this way sets a poor tone.


There's enough subjectivity and brand-whoring going on that you're less likely to have a productive discussion without being a bit more neutral from the start.
 

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I agree it's best to tread lightly with these discussions lest either camp gets inflamed.


Of your points, (3) might need a little more detail, (7) is subjective, and (8) only applies to the C8000.


I think two factors help explain the VT25's popularity...


1) Several reputable reviewers have proclaimed the VT25 the #1 HDTV for 2010 -- mostly on the stength of its initial black level. Some of these reviewers have no long-term testing methodology or, if they do, they interpret the MLL rise as insignificant (e.g., CNET does so because they compare against the 50" 7000/8000 with a ~0.018-fL MLL).


2) Brand loyalty / reliability -- Panasonic is the #1 PDP manufacturer (though Samsung/LG are on their heels) and has an historically large customer following. As was mentioned, they have slightly better reliability and good customer service. Rightfully or wrongfully, many dismiss Samsung as an LCD company not devoted to their PDP line.


FWIW, regarding buzzing, the Staples A/V sales rep (ROMAN O) who posts here has stated that the buzz-related complaints he has received on this year's Samsung plasmas are very infrequent (estimated at less than 5%, though it would be nice to get empirical data on the other brands).
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post19491036


Regarding contrast ratios, the only ANSI contrast ratios I've seen are from Chad B...


54VT25 @ 2125:1 (MLL = 0.005 fL)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=18876763


63C7000 @ 3050:1 (MLL = 0.006-0.007 fL)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post18455247
 

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There is no denying that Samsung has most of the advantages with the C8000.


However, one issue is that the 50" does not measure .007 like the bigger models, and actually measures close to the VT25 "final" MLL of about .010-.011. Samsung also has an issue with cinema smooth elevating the MLL.


If I had to choose between the two, I would still go for the VT25. One, it starts off with a good black level of .004 fL that is twice as dark as any Samsung and will maintain it for at least a year before going up to .007. Two, the build quality seems superior. I really don't like how cheap Samsung products feel. Three, I think it looks classier and more understated than the tacky looking gray bezel and silver stand of the C8000.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by koffas
I agree it's best to tread lightly with these discussions lest either camp gets inflamed.


Of your points, (3) might need a little more detail, (7) is subjective, and (8) only applies to the C8000.


I think two factors help explain the VT25's popularity...


1) Several reputable reviewers have proclaimed the VT25 the #1 HDTV for 2010 -- mostly on the stength of its initial black level. Some of these reviewers have no long-term testing methodology or, if they do, they interpret the MLL rise as insignificant (e.g., CNET does so because they compare against the 50" 7000/8000 with a ~0.018-fL MLL).


2) Brand loyalty / reliability -- Panasonic is the #1 PDP manufacturer (though Samsung/LG are on their heels) and has an historically large customer following. As was mentioned, they have slightly better reliability and good customer service. Rightfully or wrongfully, many dismiss Samsung as an LCD company not devoted to their PDP line.


FWIW, regarding buzzing, the Staples A/V sales rep (ROMAN O) who posts here has stated that the buzz-related complaints he has received on this year's Samsung plasmas are very infrequent (estimated at less than 5%, though it would be nice to get empirical data on the other brands).
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post19491036


Regarding contrast ratios, the only ANSI contrast ratios I've seen are from Chad B...


54VT25 @ 2125:1 (MLL = 0.005 fL)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=18876763


63C7000 @ 3050:1 (MLL = 0.006-0.007 fL)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post18455247
Wow, thanks for the link and the data



Does anyone happen to know off the top of their heads what the 5080HD ANSI contrast was? I'd like to know how my set stacks up because frankly I'm still pretty pleased with it. I just wish it was a) larger and b) 1080p
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_Prestige
There is no denying that Samsung has most of the advantages with the C8000.


However, one issue is that the 50" does not measure .007 like the bigger models, and actually measures close to the VT25 "final" MLL of about .010-.011. Samsung also has an issue with cinema smooth elevating the MLL.
D-Nice said that he has consistently seen Samsung 58" and 63" at .007-.008, and 50" at .009-.010.


The readings on the Samsung 58" and 63" plasmas also happen to be similar to, or very close to, readings from several sources on AVS Forum.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvin35
Not trying to start a war, just trying to understand. Why are people choosing the Vt25 over the larger Samsungs? From everyting I have read the larger Samsungs have:

1. better black levels(I don't consider the Vt25's initial MLL to be it's true black level)
At final values, it appears, yes, the 58"/63" will best Panny's 58"/65". At 50", it appears, they will be very close, a 'virtual tie', depending on any two given samples being compared. I know you said 'larger Samsungs', but I just wanted to point this out, about the 50" plasmas, anyway.

Quote:
2. better contrast


3. a slightly cleaner image

4. black levels that don't rise, or float
Well, you have a justifiable caveat on #1, but not on #4?

The Samsung plasmas' blacks are 'pre-risen'.


So, really, that part of #4 isn't fair, not having a caveat mentioning that they start higher.

Quote:
5. a very good 3D image(for those who care)
And why not mention that Panasonic 3D is very good, as well?

Quote:
6. better processing


7. more pleasing design


8. better filter


9. are hundreds cheaper.


10. More buzzing.



Please help me understand.


DOCUMAKER I know you know a lot about both these.
I, basically, agree with everything, though.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by QZ1
D-Nice said that he has consistently seen Samsung 58" and 63" at .007-.008, and 50" at .009-.010. Those readings also happen to be similar to or very close to readings from several sources on AVS Forum.
There is little question about the MLL on Samsung's 58/63" panels. Do you have links to measurements that agree with D-Nice's lower MLL reading on the 50" panels?


CNET's 0.017/0.019 fL measurements on the 50" C7000/C8000 are not related to Cinema Smooth. With CS enagged, they measured the MLL going from 0.019 to 0.032 fL on the C8000 and the (untweaked) C7000 doesn't have the CS option.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvin35
Not trying to start a war, just trying to understand. Why are people choosing the Vt25 over the larger Samsungs?
As someone with a P65VT25 on the way, I can answer this as it pertains to my situation...

Quote:
From everyting I have read the larger Samsungs have:

1. better black levels(I don't consider the Vt25's initial MLL to be it's true black level)
Reply 1: The initial black level will probably last about a year - so I get better black levels for a year. Even after the rise the Panasonic will at least tie the Samsung so it's a draw at best. Also the 65 inchers seems to exhibit less rise then the smaller sizes (at least the V10's did).

Quote:
2. better contrast
Reply 2: I don't think that's true. Where did you get this information?

Quote:
3. a slightly cleaner image
Reply 3: Even if true I doubt anyone could tell the difference if they weren't side-by-side.

Quote:
4. black levels that don't rise, or float
Reply 4: My five year old Panasonic 500U supposedly had floating blacks. Talk of it was all over this forum then like now. It had me concerned when I bought it, but in all this time I've never seen them. I thought I did once, but when I played the offending DVD on my Sony Trinitron (CRT) it did the same thing. I'll worry about them when/if I ever see them.

Quote:
5. a very good 3D image(for those who care).
Reply 5: By all accounts Panasonic's is better.

Quote:
6. better processing.
Reply 6: I have a Pioneer VSX1120 AVR with an excellent Marvell video processor that I can let do the upconverting of SD. I don't usually let the TV do it anyway.

Quote:
7. more pleasing design
Reply 7: My room is brown so the 'bronze' finish (really brown plastic) actually works well for me. Even without that, I don't find the Panasonic's design objectionable.

Quote:
8. better filter
Reply 8: Sound's like another unsubstantiated claim. Even if true, it would be covered under item 3.

Quote:
9. are hundreds cheaper.
Reply 9: Not with the deal I got through Panasonic's EPP.


Quote:
10. More buzzing.
Reply 10: Only desirable when watching "Bee Movie".


Quote:
Please help me understand.
Add to the above: The Panasonic has two extra inches over the Samsung and I've dealt with Samsung too long to trust their reliability on such an expensive purchase.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by koffas
There is little question about the MLL on Samsung's 58/63" panels. Do you have links to measurements that agree with D-Nice's lower MLL reading on the 50" panels?
Oops..that line was only supposed to apply to the 58"/63" panels. (I'll edit that post.) So, no, I haven't read about MLL readings similar to D-Nice's readings on 50" panels; I don't know why. In fact, in general, I have read less about the 50" panels; in part, because I haven't been that interested in them, and possibly less of them have had the MLL tested since the FW update?

Quote:
CNET's 0.017/0.019 fL measurements on the 50" C7000/C8000 are not related to Cinema Smooth. With CS enagged, they measured the MLL going from 0.019 to 0.032 fL on the C8000 and the (untweaked) C7000 doesn't have the CS option.
IIRC, CNet tested before the FW update; I would expect a better reading with the updated FW. I would think the FW is why D-Nice's readings have been so much better. What do you think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah
Panasonic has better reliability, according to Consumer Reports.


BTW, I agree with the above comment that asking this question in this way sets a poor tone.


There's enough subjectivity and brand-whoring going on that you're less likely to have a productive discussion without being a bit more neutral from the start.
You are probably right. Only worded it the way I did because that was the question rolling around in my head.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicheyPoor
As someone with a P65VT25 on the way, I can answer this as it pertains to my situation...


Reply 1: The initial black level will probably last about a year - so I get better black levels for a year. Even after the rise the Panasonic will at least tie the Samsung so it's a draw at best. Also the 65 inchers seems to exhibit less rise then the smaller sizes (at least the V10's did).

No, the Samsung 63" (and 58") are at .007-.008. The Panasonic 65", (58", 54", and 50") start at .004; and, according to Panasonic, will end at .010-.011.


Panasonic 65" (and 58") are no different than 54" and 50" this year, as opposed to last year. (Note, last year, the 65" and 58" were released ~2.5 mos. later than the rest; whereas this year, they were all released in the same week.)


BTW, actual screen sizes are 62.9" vs. 64.7" = 1.8" diff. or ~5.8%.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by QZ1 /forum/post/19637608


No, the Samsung 63" (and 58") is at .007-.008, while the Panasonic 65", according to themselves, will start at .004 and end at .010-.011.


Panasonic 65" (and 58") are no different than 54" and 50" this year, as opposed to last year. (Note, last year, the 65" and 58" were released ~2.5 mos. later than the rest; whereas this year, they were all released in the same week.)


BTW, actual screen sizes are 62.9" vs. 64.7" = 1.8" diff. or ~5.8%.

What are you a Samsung rep? First of all no one knows the exact resting point of the 65" VT25's black level yet so don't pretend you do. And I'll take 5.8% more screen area anytime. None of your nit-picking changes anything I said.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RicheyPoor /forum/post/19637667


What are you a Samsung rep? First of all no one knows the exact resting point of the 65" VT25's black level yet so don't pretend you do. And I'll take 5.8% more screen area anytime. None of your nit-picking changes anything I said.

wow
 
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