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So I'm a little new to all this home theater stuff, but I've been doing tons and tons of research on LCD's and plasmas...and the general consensus is that the Pioneer Elites (or Kuros) are the best TVs money can buy.


Why is this? What makes the Pioneers superior to all other displays? Or am I wrong to claim that? Please fill me in!
 

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I won't bring in the whole PDP vs. LCD/LED debate, but I will give you a few reasons why the Kuros are better than other competing plasmas from manufacturers such as Panny, Sammy, LG.


1) Unparalleled black levels (of course). This is why they call them Kuros, which means black in Japanese.


2) The Elites and monitors provide plenty of picture controls so they can be calibrated to be very accurate, with excellent color accuracy, grayscale, gamma, etc. Some lesser brands are much more difficult to calibrate, and to get spot on.


3) Superior IR (image retention) resistance. Pioneer >> Panny >> Sammy >> LG.


4) The Elites and monitors at least, have some of the best filters out there on a plasma, which helps in brighter room situations. The AR filter on my Hitachi was quite good, and very dark, and the filter on last year's 8 series Samsungs was not all that unlike the one on my 500M, and the filter on the pricey Panny Z1 was better than the lower models. So there are a few other plasmas out there that have filters that are competitive with the Pioneers, but you only find these on the top of the line offerings, which aren't that much less expensive than the Kuros. None of the filters on last year's mid-ranged sets from LG, Panny, Samsung are as good as the one on my Pio.


5) Pioneers don't show horizontal line bleed to the same extent as other PDP manufacturers. It's very faint if you can see it at all, and usually is never noticed unless you go looking for it. It can be obvious and jump out at you on other brands. It really bothers some people, but others would hardly even notice.


6) Save for the monitors, which don't come with speakers, the Pioneers that do come with speakers have excellent sound for built-in. Nice if you don't want to buy an AVR or if you have one but don't always want to fire it up. The new slim Samsungs are stylish, no doubt, but they do sound pretty bad.


7) I've found (at least on my 500M), that the remote is much better than the offerings from LG, Samsung and Panasonic. This might change in the future, as Samsung and LG are coming out with some innovative new remote designs. But the remote that came with my 500M is classy looking, has a nice heavy feel to it in the hand, is fully backlit the second you touch a button, and allows me to directly access a number of functions on the TV, without having to wade through a lot of menus. There is a button for each input for example, and I can just hit directly the one I want with one click. On the Samsungs for example, you have to hit the source button and then scroll through the drop-down menu to the input you want. Then you have to hit another button to select it. Too many button pushes and a bit of a nuisance. One press with the Pioneer.


8) The menus (at least on mine) are quite classy looking as well as extensive, and there are gobbs of neat features to fiddle with if you are so inclined.


For example, one kinda interesting feature is the ability to have your gray side bars dynamically change according to the brightness of the surrounding content. In other words, if you are watching some 4:3 SDTV with bars on the sides, as the picture in the middle gets brighter or dimmer, the sides automatically adjust and get brighter or dimmer as well. I presume this is designed to exercise the phosphors as equally as possible across the whole screen. It sounds like it would be annoying, as if it would flicker or something, constantly changing, but it's not. It's very subtle and not distracting. It's a gradual lightening and darkening.


Another cool feature is the ability (at least in certain picture modes/inputs) to adjust the screen horizontally or vertically a handful of pixels. If for some reason the signal is not coming in lined up just right, you can move the whole picture around up and down and left to right a little bit.


Another nice touch is the before/after feature, where you can make changes to the picture controls and instantly toggle back and forth to see the differences in the picture. Nice touches like these that come on a premium display.


As would be expected on a premium TV, it comes with nice features such as PIP and PAP (Picture and Picture: i.e. two pictures side by side). Panasonics for example don't offer this. The menus on Panasonics are also sparse and ugly. The menus on the Samsungs are quite attractive, and some might even find them more aesthetically pleasing, but for example, the picture aspect controls are not as good on the Samsungs. My Pioneer offers multiple zoom options, and also you can stretch the content. Some zooms are very basic and can only zoom the pic a bit and chop off the sides, but don't offer "intelligent stretch" where the picture get stretched progressively as you move away from the center. In other words, the center of the picture which has the most important content your eyes tend to be focused on gets stretched very little, but the more you get to the edges of the screen the greater the stretch. Anyway, the Pioneer does a better job than my Hitachi did on this intelligent stretch; it's implemented better, since the Hitachi way of doing it kind of used to annoy me sometimes, and it doesn't on the Pioneer. The Samsungs don't even offer this variable stretching, and they just stretch the whole picture evenly, so if you are watching a baseball game for example, which oftentimes focuses on the pitcher and the hitter in the exact middle of the screen, everyone looks extra-wide and fat. With intelligent stretch the players will look not as fat because they are in the center of the screen and are not being stretched as much as the edges. The Pioneer also will allow you to do 14:9, which doesn't totally stretch the picture all the way to the edges of the screen, but only half of the way, so the gray side bars are not as thick. It can be a nice compromise. You get some mild stretching, but it is not as objectionable as a full stretch or zoom and crop that eliminates the side bars all together. So you can have wide gray side bars, narrow side bars with a mild stretch, or no side bars at all with a zoom/crop or stretch. Anyway, to sum it up, the Pioneer is pretty good about giving you a wide selection of aspect ratios to choose from, and I am grateful for this. Neither my flagship Director's Series Hitachi, nor the Pannys & Sammys offer as much control over the zooming/stretching the picture, as far as I am aware.


9) 24p at 72 hz. You would think this would not be such a big deal to get right, but leave it to Samsung to offer a broken Cinema Smooth 96 hz, which inflates black levels when it's engaged, and for Panasonic to only offer a flickering 48hz (for three years in a row now?) save for their best two premium sets (V10/Z1). So the only real choices out there in plasma for 2009 if you want a good implementation of 24p without 2:3 pulldown is Pioneer or Panny V10/Z1. Well the Z1 was quite expensive so for most people that only leaves the V10 as a viable alternative, and they were a solid $2k or more for a 50 inch--not much more than the KRP's were readily available for.


10) Last but not least: build quality. Let's be honest. Both Samsung and LG come out with some stylish designs, but the build quality on their displays are just not as solid as Panasonic and Pioneer. My Hitachi was built like a tank, weighing in at 105 pounds for a 50 inch (X902), and the Panasonics are built solid, but neither brand are known for being particularly attractive. The Pioneers are the most attractive of the brands that have solid build quality. If you want a specific example, I will give you one. It's nice that the Samsungs come with swivel stands, but to be honest, if you pay particularly close attention, you might notice that oftentimes the Samsungs don't sit completely level, and it may kind of tilt to one side a wee bit.


Now, for things that I think could be improved on my 500M:


1) It bothers me that I cannot make the side bars black, and I am forced to use some shade of gray. I know it's for my own good because it exercises the phosphors more evenly, preventing uneven wear, but I would still like the choice. For example, maybe I could live with it when I am watching by myself, but let's say I have guests over and I want to present them some content that happens to have side-bars. It would be nice for at least those occasions to show off the deep black side-bars that this monitor is capable of when I am showing content to my guests. They take a little getting used to, and people would find the black side bars more impressive and far less distracting than the gray. Apparently this is only an issue on the monitors, and can be changed on the other Pioneers, via ControlCal.


2) I genuinely wish a premium PDP such as these Kuros came with a swivel stand. I have a large 10 foot window opposite my display in the living room, and sometimes it does help on the reflections to swivel the display just a bit.

My Hitachi was the coolest, because it had a power swivel stand and I wouldn't even have to get up from the chair. I could just swivel it via the remote. Sometimes I do need to fiddle with plugging/unplugging inputs on the back, and it makes it more difficult (especially since the HDMI ports are toward the middle of the back, and not near the side) to be able to swivel the monitor.


3) I oftentimes run mine in energy save mode 2, to cut down on the buzz. There is always room for improvement, and the Kuros could be quieter in the buzz/whistle department.


4) The Pure Cinema settings or whatever they are called can be a bit confusing at first. Not knowing when you should leave it set to off, or change it to standard, advanced, etc. Pioneer could have made this easier for us to learn how to set. But that's why forums like AVS are great.


5) I wish all manufacturers would copycat Sony and put those presence detectors in their displays. The Pioneer already has an ambient light sensor which adjusts the picture to compensate for the surrounding light. (I don't ever use Optimum mode). But those presence detectors would be nice, for when you leave the room or fall asleep in front of the TV. You can set it for 5 minutes or 30 minutes or what have you. If the sensor doesn't detect any motion in front of the TV, the screen will automatically go dark and shut down, to save energy. The sound still plays. This would be great in PDP's not only to save on power, but would help prevent burn-in or TIR when people fall asleep and the DVD menu just cycles over and over and over for hours on end. Or if you pause a game, movie, or your DVR, to make a sandwich or get called away on the phone or something, it would be nice for the screen to go to sleep automatically. I also wish that they would make a button on the remote so you could call up the screen wipe function with just one button press. You shouldn't have to make half a dozen clicks or more and scroll through a bunch of menus just to get the screen wipe function on. If you want to get up to make a sandwich and you know you might be gone for about 10 minutes, you should be able to quickly at the press of a button turn on the screen wipe so you not only do not get any IR, but you can clear any that you have away while you are making your sandwich! They could make it so that as soon as you press any other button on the remote, it snaps out of the screen wipe and returns to whatever you were watching. At least the Pioneer does have the nice touch where you don't have to manually set the sleep timer if you want to run the scrolling bar before you go to bed. You can have it run for an hour and then automatically shut off on its own, all in one step. You just get nice little touches on a premium brand display like this. You feel like they worked hard to design a superior product.
 

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In addition to the best black levels they have the most accurate color. The Elite line also has a superior anti-reflective coating. The electronic components are also made in Japan and the U.S. Just like many other things, you get what you pay for.


What he said.^^^
 

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Originally Posted by DocuMaker /forum/post/18264214


I won't bring in the whole PDP vs. LCD/LED debate, but I will give you a few reasons why the Kuros are better than other competing plasmas from manufacturers such as Panny, Sammy, LG.


1) Unparalleled black levels (of course). This is why they call them Kuros, which means black in Japanese.


2) The Elites and monitors provide plenty of picture controls so they can be calibrated to be very accurate, with excellent color accuracy, grayscale, gamma, etc. Some lesser brands are much more difficult to calibrate, and to get spot on.


3) Superior IR (image retention) resistance. Pioneer >> Panny >> Sammy >> LG.


4) The Elites and monitors at least, have some of the best filters out there on a plasma, which helps in brighter room situations. The AR filter on my Hitachi was quite good, and very dark, and the filter on last year's 8 series Samsungs was not all that unlike the one on my 500M, and the filter on the pricey Panny Z1 was better than the lower models. So there are a few other plasmas out there that have filters that are competitive with the Pioneers, but you only find these on the top of the line offerings, which aren't that much less expensive than the Kuros. None of the filters on last year's mid-ranged sets from LG, Panny, Samsung are as good as the one on my Pio.


5) Pioneers don't show horizontal line bleed to the same extent as other PDP manufacturers. It's very faint if you can see it at all, and usually is never noticed unless you go looking for it. It can be obvious and jump out at you on other brands. It really bothers some people, but others would hardly even notice.


6) Save for the monitors, which don't come with speakers, the Pioneers that do come with speakers have excellent sound for built-in. Nice if you don't want to buy an AVR or if you have one but don't always want to fire it up. The new slim Samsungs are stylish, no doubt, but they do sound pretty bad.


7) I've found (at least on my 500M), that the remote is much better than the offerings from LG, Samsung and Panasonic. This might change in the future, as Samsung and LG are coming out with some innovative new remote designs. But the remote that came with my 500M is classy looking, has a nice heavy feel to it in the hand, is fully backlit the second you touch a button, and allows me to directly access a number of functions on the TV, without having to wade through a lot of menus. There is a button for each input for example, and I can just hit directly the one I want with one click. On the Samsungs for example, you have to hit the source button and then scroll through the drop-down menu to the input you want. Then you have to hit another button to select it. Too many button pushes and a bit of a nuisance. One press with the Pioneer.


8) The menus (at least on mine) are quite classy looking as well as extensive, and there are gobbs of neat features to fiddle with if you are so inclined.


For example, one kinda interesting feature is the ability to have your gray side bars dynamically change according to the brightness of the surrounding content. In other words, if you are watching some 4:3 SDTV with bars on the sides, as the picture in the middle gets brighter or dimmer, the sides automatically adjust and get brighter or dimmer as well. I presume this is designed to exercise the phosphors as equally as possible across the whole screen. It sounds like it would be annoying, as if it would flicker or something, constantly changing, but it's not. It's very subtle and not distracting. It's a gradual lightening and darkening.


Another cool feature is the ability (at least in certain picture modes/inputs) to adjust the screen horizontally or vertically a handful of pixels. If for some reason the signal is not coming in lined up just right, you can move the whole picture around up and down and left to right a little bit.


Another nice touch is the before/after feature, where you can make changes to the picture controls and instantly toggle back and forth to see the differences in the picture. Nice touches like these that come on a premium display.


As would be expected on a premium TV, it comes with nice features such as PIP and PAP (Picture and Picture: i.e. two pictures side by side). Panasonics for example don't offer this. The menus on Panasonics are also sparse and ugly. The menus on the Samsungs are quite attractive, and some might even find them more aesthetically pleasing, but for example, the picture aspect controls are not as good on the Samsungs. My Pioneer offers multiple zoom options, and also you can stretch the content. Some zooms are very basic and can only zoom the pic a bit and chop off the sides, but don't offer "intelligent stretch" where the picture get stretched progressively as you move away from the center. In other words, the center of the picture which has the most important content your eyes tend to be focused on gets stretched very little, but the more you get to the edges of the screen the greater the stretch. Anyway, the Pioneer does a better job than my Hitachi did on this intelligent stretch; it's implemented better, since the Hitachi way of doing it kind of used to annoy me sometimes, and it doesn't on the Pioneer. The Samsungs don't even offer this variable stretching, and they just stretch the whole picture evenly, so if you are watching a baseball game for example, which oftentimes focuses on the pitcher and the hitter in the exact middle of the screen, everyone looks extra-wide and fat. With intelligent stretch the players will look not as fat because they are in the center of the screen and are not being stretched as much as the edges. The Pioneer also will allow you to do 14:9, which doesn't totally stretch the picture all the way to the edges of the screen, but only half of the way, so the gray side bars are not as thick. It can be a nice compromise. You get some mild stretching, but it is not as objectionable as a full stretch or zoom and crop that eliminates the side bars all together. So you can have wide gray side bars, narrow side bars with a mild stretch, or no side bars at all with a zoom/crop or stretch. Anyway, to sum it up, the Pioneer is pretty good about giving you a wide selection of aspect ratios to choose from, and I am grateful for this. Neither my flagship Director's Series Hitachi, nor the Pannys & Sammys offer as much control over the zooming/stretching the picture, as far as I am aware.


9) 24p at 72 hz. You would think this would not be such a big deal to get right, but leave it to Samsung to offer a broken Cinema Smooth 96 hz, which inflates black levels when it's engaged, and for Panasonic to only offer a flickering 48hz (for three years in a row now?) save for their best two premium sets (V10/Z1). So the only real choices out there in plasma for 2009 if you want a good implementation of 24p without 2:3 pulldown is Pioneer or Panny V10/Z1. Well the Z1 was quite expensive so for most people that only leaves the V10 as a viable alternative, and they were a solid $2k or more for a 50 inch--not much more than the KRP's were readily available for.


10) Last but not least: build quality. Let's be honest. Both Samsung and LG come out with some stylish designs, but the build quality on their displays are just not as solid as Panasonic and Pioneer. My Hitachi was built like a tank, weighing in at 105 pounds for a 50 inch (X902), and the Panasonics are built solid, but neither brand are known for being particularly attractive. The Pioneers are the most attractive of the brands that have solid build quality. If you want a specific example, I will give you one. It's nice that the Samsungs come with swivel stands, but to be honest, if you pay particularly close attention, you might notice that oftentimes the Samsungs don't sit completely level, and it may kind of tilt to one side a wee bit.


Now, for things that I think could be improved on my 500M:


1) It bothers me that I cannot make the side bars black, and I am forced to use some shade of gray. I know it's for my own good because it exercises the phosphors more evenly, preventing uneven wear, but I would still like the choice. For example, maybe I could live with it when I am watching by myself, but let's say I have guests over and I want to present them some content that happens to have side-bars. It would be nice for at least those occasions to show off the deep black side-bars that this monitor is capable of when I am showing content to my guests. They take a little getting used to, and people would find the black side bars more impressive and far less distracting than the gray. Apparently this is only an issue on the monitors, and can be changed on the other Pioneers, via ControlCal.


2) I genuinely wish a premium PDP such as these Kuros came with a swivel stand. I have a large 10 foot window opposite my display in the living room, and sometimes it does help on the reflections to swivel the display just a bit.

My Hitachi was the coolest, because it had a power swivel stand and I wouldn't even have to get up from the chair. I could just swivel it via the remote. Sometimes I do need to fiddle with plugging/unplugging inputs on the back, and it makes it more difficult (especially since the HDMI ports are toward the middle of the back, and not near the side) to be able to swivel the monitor.


3) I oftentimes run mine in energy save mode 2, to cut down on the buzz. There is always room for improvement, and the Kuros could be quieter in the buzz/whistle department.


4) The Pure Cinema settings or whatever they are called can be a bit confusing at first. Not knowing when you should leave it set to off, or change it to standard, advanced, etc. Pioneer could have made this easier for us to learn how to set. But that's why forums like AVS are great.


5) I wish all manufacturers would copycat Sony and put those presence detectors in their displays. The Pioneer already has an ambient light sensor which adjusts the picture to compensate for the surrounding light. (I don't ever use Optimum mode). But those presence detectors would be nice, for when you leave the room or fall asleep in front of the TV. You can set it for 5 minutes or 30 minutes or what have you. If the sensor doesn't detect any motion in front of the TV, the screen will automatically go dark and shut down, to save energy. The sound still plays. This would be great in PDP's not only to save on power, but would help prevent burn-in or TIR when people fall asleep and the DVD menu just cycles over and over and over for hours on end. Or if you pause a game, movie, or your DVR, to make a sandwich or get called away on the phone or something, it would be nice for the screen to go to sleep automatically. I also wish that they would make a button on the remote so you could call up the screen wipe function with just one button press. You shouldn't have to make half a dozen clicks or more and scroll through a bunch of menus just to get the screen wipe function on. If you want to get up to make a sandwich and you know you might be gone for about 10 minutes, you should be able to quickly at the press of a button turn on the screen wipe so you not only do not get any IR, but you can clear any that you have away while you are making your sandwich! They could make it so that as soon as you press any other button on the remote, it snaps out of the screen wipe and returns to whatever you were watching. At least the Pioneer does have the nice touch where you don't have to manually set the sleep timer if you want to run the scrolling bar before you go to bed. You can have it run for an hour and then automatically shut off on its own, all in one step. You just get nice little touches on a premium brand display like this. You feel like they worked hard to design a superior product.

Wow what a great discription and makes me even prouder to be a new owner of a Pio Kuro PDP-6020FD , its not a Elite but its everything I could of ever dreamed of and filled the shoes of my Panny 65v10 I traded in for my Kuro and then some . I had a question about the buzz you were talking about and have read from a few other Kuro owners but mine is whisper quiet, so my question is do they get louder with age ? or if there quiet do they normally stay that way ? I love this display I think I would love it anyway with a buzz within reason of course. Also you are so wright about the removable sound bar it sounds incredible even though I haven't used it since it was hooked up. But I had another question is there away of just running the display speaker without using my avr speakers even though im running everything threw my Pioneer Elite 94 avr via HDMI ? I mean you have to have the avr on to get a video signal which of course forces you to run your speakers threw your AVR. It would be nice to just run the speaker on the display because it sounds so good and for those late nights and your not in the mood for dual subs and seven speakers. I've gone threw the menu a few times and cant seem to figure it out if there is even a way to do it. Thanks In advance and to the op that created this thread my apologies in advance for the temporary thread jacking
 

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Quote:
1) It bothers me that I cannot make the side bars black, and I am forced to use some shade of gray.

It is possible to do, but those who have the service menu know-how required are few. If you ever opt for a pro-calibration, ask the calibrator if they are capable of making the change for you.

Quote:
I had a question about the buzz you were talking about and have read from a few other Kuro owners but mine is whisper quiet, so my question is do they get louder with age ?

Doubtful, based on personal experience. If it's not loud now, then you're likely good.

Quote:
But I had another question is there away of just running the display speaker without using my avr speakers

Does your AVR have an option for using TV sound? Note that piping your sound through the display generally locks you out of using lossless codecs.
 

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DocuMaker, put me down for one hardback copy of your novel. thanks buddy!!!

Why are Pioneers better, a novel by DocuMaker.VVVV

VVVV

------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker /forum/post/18264214


I won't bring in the whole PDP vs. LCD/LED debate, but I will give you a few reasons why the Kuros are better than other competing plasmas from manufacturers such as Panny, Sammy, LG.


1) Unparalleled black levels (of course). This is why they call them Kuros, which means black in Japanese.


2) The Elites and monitors provide plenty of picture controls so they can be calibrated to be very accurate, with excellent color accuracy, grayscale, gamma, etc. Some lesser brands are much more difficult to calibrate, and to get spot on.


3) Superior IR (image retention) resistance. Pioneer >> Panny >> Sammy >> LG.


4) The Elites and monitors at least, have some of the best filters out there on a plasma, which helps in brighter room situations. The AR filter on my Hitachi was quite good, and very dark, and the filter on last year's 8 series Samsungs was not all that unlike the one on my 500M, and the filter on the pricey Panny Z1 was better than the lower models. So there are a few other plasmas out there that have filters that are competitive with the Pioneers, but you only find these on the top of the line offerings, which aren't that much less expensive than the Kuros. None of the filters on last year's mid-ranged sets from LG, Panny, Samsung are as good as the one on my Pio.


5) Pioneers don't show horizontal line bleed to the same extent as other PDP manufacturers. It's very faint if you can see it at all, and usually is never noticed unless you go looking for it. It can be obvious and jump out at you on other brands. It really bothers some people, but others would hardly even notice.


6) Save for the monitors, which don't come with speakers, the Pioneers that do come with speakers have excellent sound for built-in. Nice if you don't want to buy an AVR or if you have one but don't always want to fire it up. The new slim Samsungs are stylish, no doubt, but they do sound pretty bad.


7) I've found (at least on my 500M), that the remote is much better than the offerings from LG, Samsung and Panasonic. This might change in the future, as Samsung and LG are coming out with some innovative new remote designs. But the remote that came with my 500M is classy looking, has a nice heavy feel to it in the hand, is fully backlit the second you touch a button, and allows me to directly access a number of functions on the TV, without having to wade through a lot of menus. There is a button for each input for example, and I can just hit directly the one I want with one click. On the Samsungs for example, you have to hit the source button and then scroll through the drop-down menu to the input you want. Then you have to hit another button to select it. Too many button pushes and a bit of a nuisance. One press with the Pioneer.


8) The menus (at least on mine) are quite classy looking as well as extensive, and there are gobbs of neat features to fiddle with if you are so inclined.


For example, one kinda interesting feature is the ability to have your gray side bars dynamically change according to the brightness of the surrounding content. In other words, if you are watching some 4:3 SDTV with bars on the sides, as the picture in the middle gets brighter or dimmer, the sides automatically adjust and get brighter or dimmer as well. I presume this is designed to exercise the phosphors as equally as possible across the whole screen. It sounds like it would be annoying, as if it would flicker or something, constantly changing, but it's not. It's very subtle and not distracting. It's a gradual lightening and darkening.


Another cool feature is the ability (at least in certain picture modes/inputs) to adjust the screen horizontally or vertically a handful of pixels. If for some reason the signal is not coming in lined up just right, you can move the whole picture around up and down and left to right a little bit.


Another nice touch is the before/after feature, where you can make changes to the picture controls and instantly toggle back and forth to see the differences in the picture. Nice touches like these that come on a premium display.


As would be expected on a premium TV, it comes with nice features such as PIP and PAP (Picture and Picture: i.e. two pictures side by side). Panasonics for example don't offer this. The menus on Panasonics are also sparse and ugly. The menus on the Samsungs are quite attractive, and some might even find them more aesthetically pleasing, but for example, the picture aspect controls are not as good on the Samsungs. My Pioneer offers multiple zoom options, and also you can stretch the content. Some zooms are very basic and can only zoom the pic a bit and chop off the sides, but don't offer "intelligent stretch" where the picture get stretched progressively as you move away from the center. In other words, the center of the picture which has the most important content your eyes tend to be focused on gets stretched very little, but the more you get to the edges of the screen the greater the stretch. Anyway, the Pioneer does a better job than my Hitachi did on this intelligent stretch; it's implemented better, since the Hitachi way of doing it kind of used to annoy me sometimes, and it doesn't on the Pioneer. The Samsungs don't even offer this variable stretching, and they just stretch the whole picture evenly, so if you are watching a baseball game for example, which oftentimes focuses on the pitcher and the hitter in the exact middle of the screen, everyone looks extra-wide and fat. With intelligent stretch the players will look not as fat because they are in the center of the screen and are not being stretched as much as the edges. The Pioneer also will allow you to do 14:9, which doesn't totally stretch the picture all the way to the edges of the screen, but only half of the way, so the gray side bars are not as thick. It can be a nice compromise. You get some mild stretching, but it is not as objectionable as a full stretch or zoom and crop that eliminates the side bars all together. So you can have wide gray side bars, narrow side bars with a mild stretch, or no side bars at all with a zoom/crop or stretch. Anyway, to sum it up, the Pioneer is pretty good about giving you a wide selection of aspect ratios to choose from, and I am grateful for this. Neither my flagship Director's Series Hitachi, nor the Pannys & Sammys offer as much control over the zooming/stretching the picture, as far as I am aware.


9) 24p at 72 hz. You would think this would not be such a big deal to get right, but leave it to Samsung to offer a broken Cinema Smooth 96 hz, which inflates black levels when it's engaged, and for Panasonic to only offer a flickering 48hz (for three years in a row now?) save for their best two premium sets (V10/Z1). So the only real choices out there in plasma for 2009 if you want a good implementation of 24p without 2:3 pulldown is Pioneer or Panny V10/Z1. Well the Z1 was quite expensive so for most people that only leaves the V10 as a viable alternative, and they were a solid $2k or more for a 50 inch--not much more than the KRP's were readily available for.


10) Last but not least: build quality. Let's be honest. Both Samsung and LG come out with some stylish designs, but the build quality on their displays are just not as solid as Panasonic and Pioneer. My Hitachi was built like a tank, weighing in at 105 pounds for a 50 inch (X902), and the Panasonics are built solid, but neither brand are known for being particularly attractive. The Pioneers are the most attractive of the brands that have solid build quality. If you want a specific example, I will give you one. It's nice that the Samsungs come with swivel stands, but to be honest, if you pay particularly close attention, you might notice that oftentimes the Samsungs don't sit completely level, and it may kind of tilt to one side a wee bit.


Now, for things that I think could be improved on my 500M:


1) It bothers me that I cannot make the side bars black, and I am forced to use some shade of gray. I know it's for my own good because it exercises the phosphors more evenly, preventing uneven wear, but I would still like the choice. For example, maybe I could live with it when I am watching by myself, but let's say I have guests over and I want to present them some content that happens to have side-bars. It would be nice for at least those occasions to show off the deep black side-bars that this monitor is capable of when I am showing content to my guests. They take a little getting used to, and people would find the black side bars more impressive and far less distracting than the gray. Apparently this is only an issue on the monitors, and can be changed on the other Pioneers, via ControlCal.


2) I genuinely wish a premium PDP such as these Kuros came with a swivel stand. I have a large 10 foot window opposite my display in the living room, and sometimes it does help on the reflections to swivel the display just a bit.

My Hitachi was the coolest, because it had a power swivel stand and I wouldn't even have to get up from the chair. I could just swivel it via the remote. Sometimes I do need to fiddle with plugging/unplugging inputs on the back, and it makes it more difficult (especially since the HDMI ports are toward the middle of the back, and not near the side) to be able to swivel the monitor.


3) I oftentimes run mine in energy save mode 2, to cut down on the buzz. There is always room for improvement, and the Kuros could be quieter in the buzz/whistle department.


4) The Pure Cinema settings or whatever they are called can be a bit confusing at first. Not knowing when you should leave it set to off, or change it to standard, advanced, etc. Pioneer could have made this easier for us to learn how to set. But that's why forums like AVS are great.


5) I wish all manufacturers would copycat Sony and put those presence detectors in their displays. The Pioneer already has an ambient light sensor which adjusts the picture to compensate for the surrounding light. (I don't ever use Optimum mode). But those presence detectors would be nice, for when you leave the room or fall asleep in front of the TV. You can set it for 5 minutes or 30 minutes or what have you. If the sensor doesn't detect any motion in front of the TV, the screen will automatically go dark and shut down, to save energy. The sound still plays. This would be great in PDP's not only to save on power, but would help prevent burn-in or TIR when people fall asleep and the DVD menu just cycles over and over and over for hours on end. Or if you pause a game, movie, or your DVR, to make a sandwich or get called away on the phone or something, it would be nice for the screen to go to sleep automatically. I also wish that they would make a button on the remote so you could call up the screen wipe function with just one button press. You shouldn't have to make half a dozen clicks or more and scroll through a bunch of menus just to get the screen wipe function on. If you want to get up to make a sandwich and you know you might be gone for about 10 minutes, you should be able to quickly at the press of a button turn on the screen wipe so you not only do not get any IR, but you can clear any that you have away while you are making your sandwich! They could make it so that as soon as you press any other button on the remote, it snaps out of the screen wipe and returns to whatever you were watching. At least the Pioneer does have the nice touch where you don't have to manually set the sleep timer if you want to run the scrolling bar before you go to bed. You can have it run for an hour and then automatically shut off on its own, all in one step. You just get nice little touches on a premium brand display like this. You feel like they worked hard to design a superior product.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFactor /forum/post/18264304


Wow what a great discription and makes me even prouder to be a new owner of a Pio Kuro PDP-6020FD , its not a Elite but its everything I could of ever dreamed of and filled the shoes of my Panny 65v10 I traded in for my Kuro and then some . I had a question about the buzz you were talking about and have read from a few other Kuro owners but mine is whisper quiet, so my question is do they get louder with age ? or if there quiet do they normally stay that way ? I love this display I think I would love it anyway with a buzz within reason of course. Also you are so wright about the removable sound bar it sounds incredible even though I haven't used it since it was hooked up. But I had another question is there away of just running the display speaker without using my avr speakers even though im running everything threw my Pioneer Elite 94 avr via HDMI ? I mean you have to have the avr on to get a video signal which of course forces you to run your speakers threw your AVR. It would be nice to just run the speaker on the display because it sounds so good and for those late nights and your not in the mood for dual subs and seven speakers. I've gone threw the menu a few times and cant seem to figure it out if there is even a way to do it. Thanks In advance and to the op that created this thread my apologies in advance for the temporary thread jacking

Some buzz more with age and some do not.
 

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This Pioneer worshiping is getting old, and these lengthy glowing reports are full of holes.


You say the Z1 is expensive. So, Pioneers were not expensive ???


When you say Elites and monitors "at least", you really mean Elites and monitors ONLY. Sorry, the regular non-Elite Kuros fell short in several areas in order to to prop up the Elite prices.


To say that Panasonic "only" offers flickering 24p, and then retract that statement later is deceptive. The V10s were affordable and widely available for anyone who wanted one.


You forgot the big one: Pioneer stopped making plasmas. This is actually a serious detriment. More important than black levels.


DelJ





Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker /forum/post/18264214


I won't bring in the whole PDP vs. LCD/LED debate, but I will give you a few reasons why the Kuros are better than other competing plasmas from manufacturers such as Panny, Sammy, LG.


1) Unparalleled black levels (of course). This is why they call them Kuros, which means black in Japanese.


2) The Elites and monitors provide plenty of picture controls so they can be calibrated to be very accurate, with excellent color accuracy, grayscale, gamma, etc. Some lesser brands are much more difficult to calibrate, and to get spot on.


3) Superior IR (image retention) resistance. Pioneer >> Panny >> Sammy >> LG.


4) The Elites and monitors at least, have some of the best filters out there on a plasma, which helps in brighter room situations. The AR filter on my Hitachi was quite good, and very dark, and the filter on last year's 8 series Samsungs was not all that unlike the one on my 500M, and the filter on the pricey Panny Z1 was better than the lower models. So there are a few other plasmas out there that have filters that are competitive with the Pioneers, but you only find these on the top of the line offerings, which aren't that much less expensive than the Kuros. None of the filters on last year's mid-ranged sets from LG, Panny, Samsung are as good as the one on my Pio.


5) Pioneers don't show horizontal line bleed to the same extent as other PDP manufacturers. It's very faint if you can see it at all, and usually is never noticed unless you go looking for it. It can be obvious and jump out at you on other brands. It really bothers some people, but others would hardly even notice.


6) Save for the monitors, which don't come with speakers, the Pioneers that do come with speakers have excellent sound for built-in. Nice if you don't want to buy an AVR or if you have one but don't always want to fire it up. The new slim Samsungs are stylish, no doubt, but they do sound pretty bad.


7) I've found (at least on my 500M), that the remote is much better than the offerings from LG, Samsung and Panasonic. This might change in the future, as Samsung and LG are coming out with some innovative new remote designs. But the remote that came with my 500M is classy looking, has a nice heavy feel to it in the hand, is fully backlit the second you touch a button, and allows me to directly access a number of functions on the TV, without having to wade through a lot of menus. There is a button for each input for example, and I can just hit directly the one I want with one click. On the Samsungs for example, you have to hit the source button and then scroll through the drop-down menu to the input you want. Then you have to hit another button to select it. Too many button pushes and a bit of a nuisance. One press with the Pioneer.


8) The menus (at least on mine) are quite classy looking as well as extensive, and there are gobbs of neat features to fiddle with if you are so inclined.


For example, one kinda interesting feature is the ability to have your gray side bars dynamically change according to the brightness of the surrounding content. In other words, if you are watching some 4:3 SDTV with bars on the sides, as the picture in the middle gets brighter or dimmer, the sides automatically adjust and get brighter or dimmer as well. I presume this is designed to exercise the phosphors as equally as possible across the whole screen. It sounds like it would be annoying, as if it would flicker or something, constantly changing, but it's not. It's very subtle and not distracting. It's a gradual lightening and darkening.


Another cool feature is the ability (at least in certain picture modes/inputs) to adjust the screen horizontally or vertically a handful of pixels. If for some reason the signal is not coming in lined up just right, you can move the whole picture around up and down and left to right a little bit.


Another nice touch is the before/after feature, where you can make changes to the picture controls and instantly toggle back and forth to see the differences in the picture. Nice touches like these that come on a premium display.


As would be expected on a premium TV, it comes with nice features such as PIP and PAP (Picture and Picture: i.e. two pictures side by side). Panasonics for example don't offer this. The menus on Panasonics are also sparse and ugly. The menus on the Samsungs are quite attractive, and some might even find them more aesthetically pleasing, but for example, the picture aspect controls are not as good on the Samsungs. My Pioneer offers multiple zoom options, and also you can stretch the content. Some zooms are very basic and can only zoom the pic a bit and chop off the sides, but don't offer "intelligent stretch" where the picture get stretched progressively as you move away from the center. In other words, the center of the picture which has the most important content your eyes tend to be focused on gets stretched very little, but the more you get to the edges of the screen the greater the stretch. Anyway, the Pioneer does a better job than my Hitachi did on this intelligent stretch; it's implemented better, since the Hitachi way of doing it kind of used to annoy me sometimes, and it doesn't on the Pioneer. The Samsungs don't even offer this variable stretching, and they just stretch the whole picture evenly, so if you are watching a baseball game for example, which oftentimes focuses on the pitcher and the hitter in the exact middle of the screen, everyone looks extra-wide and fat. With intelligent stretch the players will look not as fat because they are in the center of the screen and are not being stretched as much as the edges. The Pioneer also will allow you to do 14:9, which doesn't totally stretch the picture all the way to the edges of the screen, but only half of the way, so the gray side bars are not as thick. It can be a nice compromise. You get some mild stretching, but it is not as objectionable as a full stretch or zoom and crop that eliminates the side bars all together. So you can have wide gray side bars, narrow side bars with a mild stretch, or no side bars at all with a zoom/crop or stretch. Anyway, to sum it up, the Pioneer is pretty good about giving you a wide selection of aspect ratios to choose from, and I am grateful for this. Neither my flagship Director's Series Hitachi, nor the Pannys & Sammys offer as much control over the zooming/stretching the picture, as far as I am aware.


9) 24p at 72 hz. You would think this would not be such a big deal to get right, but leave it to Samsung to offer a broken Cinema Smooth 96 hz, which inflates black levels when it's engaged, and for Panasonic to only offer a flickering 48hz (for three years in a row now?) save for their best two premium sets (V10/Z1). So the only real choices out there in plasma for 2009 if you want a good implementation of 24p without 2:3 pulldown is Pioneer or Panny V10/Z1. Well the Z1 was quite expensive so for most people that only leaves the V10 as a viable alternative, and they were a solid $2k or more for a 50 inch--not much more than the KRP's were readily available for.


10) Last but not least: build quality. Let's be honest. Both Samsung and LG come out with some stylish designs, but the build quality on their displays are just not as solid as Panasonic and Pioneer. My Hitachi was built like a tank, weighing in at 105 pounds for a 50 inch (X902), and the Panasonics are built solid, but neither brand are known for being particularly attractive. The Pioneers are the most attractive of the brands that have solid build quality. If you want a specific example, I will give you one. It's nice that the Samsungs come with swivel stands, but to be honest, if you pay particularly close attention, you might notice that oftentimes the Samsungs don't sit completely level, and it may kind of tilt to one side a wee bit.


Now, for things that I think could be improved on my 500M:


1) It bothers me that I cannot make the side bars black, and I am forced to use some shade of gray. I know it's for my own good because it exercises the phosphors more evenly, preventing uneven wear, but I would still like the choice. For example, maybe I could live with it when I am watching by myself, but let's say I have guests over and I want to present them some content that happens to have side-bars. It would be nice for at least those occasions to show off the deep black side-bars that this monitor is capable of when I am showing content to my guests. They take a little getting used to, and people would find the black side bars more impressive and far less distracting than the gray. Apparently this is only an issue on the monitors, and can be changed on the other Pioneers, via ControlCal.


2) I genuinely wish a premium PDP such as these Kuros came with a swivel stand. I have a large 10 foot window opposite my display in the living room, and sometimes it does help on the reflections to swivel the display just a bit.

My Hitachi was the coolest, because it had a power swivel stand and I wouldn't even have to get up from the chair. I could just swivel it via the remote. Sometimes I do need to fiddle with plugging/unplugging inputs on the back, and it makes it more difficult (especially since the HDMI ports are toward the middle of the back, and not near the side) to be able to swivel the monitor.


3) I oftentimes run mine in energy save mode 2, to cut down on the buzz. There is always room for improvement, and the Kuros could be quieter in the buzz/whistle department.


4) The Pure Cinema settings or whatever they are called can be a bit confusing at first. Not knowing when you should leave it set to off, or change it to standard, advanced, etc. Pioneer could have made this easier for us to learn how to set. But that's why forums like AVS are great.


5) I wish all manufacturers would copycat Sony and put those presence detectors in their displays. The Pioneer already has an ambient light sensor which adjusts the picture to compensate for the surrounding light. (I don't ever use Optimum mode). But those presence detectors would be nice, for when you leave the room or fall asleep in front of the TV. You can set it for 5 minutes or 30 minutes or what have you. If the sensor doesn't detect any motion in front of the TV, the screen will automatically go dark and shut down, to save energy. The sound still plays. This would be great in PDP's not only to save on power, but would help prevent burn-in or TIR when people fall asleep and the DVD menu just cycles over and over and over for hours on end. Or if you pause a game, movie, or your DVR, to make a sandwich or get called away on the phone or something, it would be nice for the screen to go to sleep automatically. I also wish that they would make a button on the remote so you could call up the screen wipe function with just one button press. You shouldn't have to make half a dozen clicks or more and scroll through a bunch of menus just to get the screen wipe function on. If you want to get up to make a sandwich and you know you might be gone for about 10 minutes, you should be able to quickly at the press of a button turn on the screen wipe so you not only do not get any IR, but you can clear any that you have away while you are making your sandwich! They could make it so that as soon as you press any other button on the remote, it snaps out of the screen wipe and returns to whatever you were watching. At least the Pioneer does have the nice touch where you don't have to manually set the sleep timer if you want to run the scrolling bar before you go to bed. You can have it run for an hour and then automatically shut off on its own, all in one step. You just get nice little touches on a premium brand display like this. You feel like they worked hard to design a superior product.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelJ /forum/post/18265120


This Pioneer worshiping is getting old, and these lengthy glowing reports are full of holes.


You say the Z1 is expensive. So, Pioneers were not expensive ???


When you say Elites and monitors "at least", you really mean Elites and monitors ONLY. Sorry, the regular non-Elite Kuros fell short in several areas in order to to prop up the Elite prices.


To say that Panasonic "only" offers flickering 24p, and then retract that statement later is deceptive. The V10s were affordable and widely available for anyone who wanted one.


You forgot the big one: Pioneer stopped making plasmas. This is actually a serious detriment. More important than black levels.


DelJ

I'd take a non-elite Kuro over any plasma from Samsung or Panasonic. What areas do the non-elites fall short in? Color accuracy? Not a big deal.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 /forum/post/18264891


Some buzz more with age and some do not.

Thanks good to know
My display is more quiet then anything else in my HT lol so I should be good to go and should remain stable with no rise hopefuly . Whats funny is my Panny 65v10 had a very slight buzz and thats one of the things there not known for and my Pio doesnt
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelJ /forum/post/18265120


This Pioneer worshiping is getting old, and these lengthy glowing reports are full of holes.


You say the Z1 is expensive. So, Pioneers were not expensive ???


When you say Elites and monitors "at least", you really mean Elites and monitors ONLY. Sorry, the regular non-Elite Kuros fell short in several areas in order to to prop up the Elite prices.


To say that Panasonic "only" offers flickering 24p, and then retract that statement later is deceptive. The V10s were affordable and widely available for anyone who wanted one.


You forgot the big one: Pioneer stopped making plasmas. This is actually a serious detriment. More important than black levels.


DelJ

We would of all been better off if Panny stopped making theres instead and im sure current owners of Pannys with the black level rise wish they stopped making them before they bought them and those are the folks I feel sorry for . Also i'd much rather read about happy customers praising there displays then endless threads and pages of negative panny owners getting explained every possible way there is and then all over again now thats getting old and again really I feel sorry for those current owners. You may be getting tired of hearing it for what reasons I dont know
but i'll say it again
Pioneer KUROS Elite and non Elites are the best Plasma ever made all around and every pro reviewer has always rated it # 1 from every review i've ever read and are well known and praised for that reason . Just out of curiosity what display have you chosen ? ON A SIDE NOTE THERE IS NO PERFECT PLASMA ! But when the smoke clears whether you like it or not Pioneer still has the best plasma all around.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_87 /forum/post/18265627


I'd take a non-elite Kuro over any plasma from Samsung or Panasonic. What areas do the non-elites fall short in? Color accuracy? Not a big deal.

x 2 And im proud to say I did
My 6020 has more accurate colors out of the box then my 65V10 PANNY I had and was one of the first things I noticed and was very happy about it and thats without calibration with only 60 hours logged .
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 /forum/post/18264426


It is possible to do, but those who have the service menu know-how required are few. If you ever opt for a pro-calibration, ask the calibrator if they are capable of making the change for you.




Doubtful, based on personal experience. If it's not loud now, then you're likely good.




Does your AVR have an option for using TV sound? Note that piping your sound through the display generally locks you out of using lossless codecs.

Thankyou for your replys and I will look into for sure. Thanks again !
 

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Still has? Pioneer plasmas are now a relic of the past.


Most of us can understand this and are now moving on.


DelJ



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFactor /forum/post/18265885


....whether you like it or not Pioneer still has the best plasma all around.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelJ /forum/post/18266166


Still has? Pioneer plasmas are now a relic of the past.


Most of us can understand this and are now moving on.


DelJ

It doesn't appear that you've moved on. It seems the trolling of Pioneer threads continues.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelJ /forum/post/18266166


Still has? Pioneer plasmas are now a relic of the past.


Most of us can understand this and are now moving on.


DelJ

Yes still has and will continue to until there are none left new in the box. There not the past until there are none around to buy new. Well then if you feel that way I assume you'll be moving on ? You never did reply with what display you have ? Im very curious what poison you have picked
 
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