quote:Originally posted by paulbf1
[B...They are more expensive because they sell fewer of them .... [/b]
Hmmm. I get it. So Kias ARE just as good as BMWs. Thanks for helping me understand.
(PBF) This is a strawman argument. I can tell you scpecifically why BMWs are better than Kias. Can you give specifics (not anecdotal like "it sounds better") why a $10K pre-pro/amp is better than a Pioneer Elite receiver of comparable power?
quote:Originally posted by paulbf1
[B...Development costs are a bigger part of the price then say, mass market receivers. ... [/b]
What do you think "development" is?
(PBF) I know what development is, since I do this professionally and have a number of my designs in production.
It is the process of applying knowledge and experience, of component selection and testing, of programming, of fine-tuning performance, endlessly until the product performs to the designer's satisfaction. This "performance" is almost without fail, superior to mass market offerings.
(PBF) Gee, I didn't know that. I always thought development was having a whole bunch of engineers, techs, support people, rent ,etc. , all of which costs money which must be recouped if you want to stay in business. And then after you've completed the design, redoing it because marketing says we need new features because that's what consumers now want.
quote:Originally posted by paulbf1
"... They certainly aren't developing their own converters and processors...
But they sure as heck ARE putting proprietary code INTO them. The mass market retailers often incorporate chips with all the desired code built-in. The small pre-pro designers often completely write the code from scratch.
(PBF) So you're saying that they have their own flavors of Dolby Digital or DTS? They buy the license and put it into the specific processors like everyone else. They may have unique artifical sound fields, and if that's important, more power to you.
I can assure you, anyone could hear the difference between ProLogic as my preamp does it, and as any mass market receiver does it.
(PBF) And you've done blind listening tests with every mass market receiver? I didn't state "any mass market receiver". I did say "law of diminishing returns".
quote:Originally posted by paulbf1
...The value nearly always goes down and is superceded by cheaper equipment. The real value is mostly in proprietary features like Logic 7. If that is more important to the buyer than ProLogic IIx, than he/she will pay the premium. How many pre-amps have up-conversion to DVI or HDMI let alone switching? Anything you buy now will be obsolete when these features becomes available. Then what about improved D/A converters, new protocols, etc....
This whole paragraph is a silly mess. If your goal is to have the latest and greatest acronyms in your gear, then you are right. I outgrew that scene long ago. My interest is premium sound reproduction, the best I can create in my environment. I speak of investment not as something you will later sell at a higher cost but rather as a piece of equipment that will continue to perform BEYOND the capabilities of mass market stuff for design generations.
(PBF) Then let me simplify it for you. Every thing you have today will be superceded in the near furture. And how do know that they outperform all mass market stuff? This is why we have a saying in the business "that there is no bigger sucker than an audiophile and valid credit card".
You probably have not managed to select components of sufficient quality to understand this. I have ProLogic and DTS decoding in my preamp. I have no desire to "upgrade." There are but a handful of preamps on the market that can improve my sound quality. I do not plan to add speakers, which is unlikely to improve my sound quality.
(PBF) But I'm really happy with my Yorx all-in-one system. Why should I upgrade :^) Considering that people like Floyd Toole at Harman consider the speaker/room to be the most important factor in sound quality it would be better to get better speakers than sink an excessive amount into electronics. Whatever excessive is, is up to you.
Conversion to DVI/HDMI? WTF cares?
(PBF) Well, my wife for one. She's not particularly thrilled at having to push 15 buttons on the remote to watch a DVD.
I am talking about sound reproduction.
If you understood the philosophy of discrete components, then you would realize, that the point is to select the best individual component to perform a particular function.
(PBF) And you pay a big premium for that "point". If you have unlimited funds, that's fine. It not, there's that law of diminishing returns rearing it's ugly head.