Why are some plasma TVs EDTVs?
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They are sold to people who can't afford another $1,000-$2,000 and don't think that there is that big of a difference. They are usually people who are not very savvy or knowledgeable about A/V and things such as 720P or 1080I. They look at the picture quality in the store and it looks better than the crap they have at home and it's cheap and affordable so they jump all over it thinking that plasma is high definition. I'm in the home theater business and have had people ask me to sell them an ED plasma and I refuse. I send them to Costco, SAMs or Walmart because they aren't discerning customers and I wouldn't make any money on them anyway so why even bother. If it meets your price range and budget and you like the picture then their happy and there's nothing wrong with that.
Plasma Maniac I think that was uncalled for.
I thing the HDTV format was designed for big screen performance. Basically when you took standard NTSC and blew it up the performance was usually pretty bad.
Now at 42" the resolution of Standard TV actually hits a sweet spot in terms of visual perception. 720x480 works just great at the 42" level. In fact the 480 corresponds to DVD resolution and the picture is just astounding.
42" HDTV while increasing the detail does not seem to do as well getting that information to our eye, especially at the min 7'-8' most people sit from their TV's. Maybe the pixels are too small or maybe most people's eyesight is like mine +.25 & -.50 but I refuse to wear glasses.
If you ever get a chance to look at a 46" ED (there are a few out there) you will see what I'm talking about. At the 720x480 46" is real pushing it in pixel size.
At 50" you really need HTTV performance to produce a picture worthy of the panel size. Sure SDTV can be unconverted, deinterlaced and stuff but you are really seeing the electronic's "interpretation" of the image.
IMO go with what please's your eye. At 42" EDTV can work just fine.
I thing the HDTV format was designed for big screen performance. Basically when you took standard NTSC and blew it up the performance was usually pretty bad.
Now at 42" the resolution of Standard TV actually hits a sweet spot in terms of visual perception. 720x480 works just great at the 42" level. In fact the 480 corresponds to DVD resolution and the picture is just astounding.
42" HDTV while increasing the detail does not seem to do as well getting that information to our eye, especially at the min 7'-8' most people sit from their TV's. Maybe the pixels are too small or maybe most people's eyesight is like mine +.25 & -.50 but I refuse to wear glasses.
If you ever get a chance to look at a 46" ED (there are a few out there) you will see what I'm talking about. At the 720x480 46" is real pushing it in pixel size.
At 50" you really need HTTV performance to produce a picture worthy of the panel size. Sure SDTV can be unconverted, deinterlaced and stuff but you are really seeing the electronic's "interpretation" of the image.
IMO go with what please's your eye. At 42" EDTV can work just fine.
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I didn't mean to be unfair but I am an ISF calibrator also and I am trained to look for things that the average person may not see. If you can't see a difference between a 42" ED plasma and a 42" HD plasma then by all means you should buy the ED version. If you can't afford the HD plasma then you should buy the ED version. However, if you are looking at a 720P broadcast shot with 720P cameras and you are viewing a great HD display device such as the Fujitsu P50XHA10 which I have the picture quality is stunning and I have many people who will back me up on this. If you can't afford to pay what I did for the P50, then I would say wait and buy a display device that supports 480P, 720P and 1080I because the prices are coming down quickly. It's like buying a 1 mega pixel camera versus a 4 megapixel camera versus an 8 megapixel camera. Some people want the best and can afford it. Some can't and have to accept less quality for a better price. That's the way the world works. I had to do that for a long, long time and I didn't have a choice. However, I recommend to my customers to wait and spend an extra $1000 6 months later to get the better resolution because Fox just went to 720P for a reason. ABC and ESPNHD went to 720P for a reason and that reason was that they believe according to studies, engineers, tests, etc. that 720P rendered a better picture for fast action sports and other fast action motion type productions than 1080I and far superior to 480p. That's why they spent millions of dollars to upgrade to 720P and that's why Fox didn't stay at 480P. They knew that the majority of their customers would prefer a better picture and that also would draw potential customers to Fox. There was alot of complaining about their 480P Widescreen which was not HD. Those are the facts.
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The ever popular ED vs. HD thread. There are plenty of these that alread exist on the forum, do a search and enjoy your research.
-JR
-JR
Juice, not to be difficult but plenty of newbies come onto the board all the time looking for exactly this info. The fact that all their research has not settled their questions means they want to talk about it. Though it may be old hat for you don't belittle our questioning.
Also when I do a search on this forum I only get results from the last two days and all of 11 links to off topic discussions. After a month of trying I still havn't figured out how to make the search global and relevant. Any ideas?
Also when I do a search on this forum I only get results from the last two days and all of 11 links to off topic discussions. After a month of trying I still havn't figured out how to make the search global and relevant. Any ideas?
Some people on this Forum love to judge for others. I did not buy an Ed display to save money. I bought an ED display, because on good HD content, I see little, if any, difference in quality of picture. We sit around 12-13 feet from the display. On SD and DVD material there is zero difference! I speak only for myself but I do wish some on this Forum would stop deciding what is right and wrong for people to buy. Please let people judge for themselves what is best for them. I know what the numbers are and I am totally surprised at what I see from an ED display. If others really see differently that is perfectly OK with me. But, please stop telling me (and others) what I see is not almost the equal of an HD set and that I am buying an ED display because of the money factor Let us speak for ourselves ONLY!. And, by the way, I have at home one of the best HD displays to compare ...A Sony 34" tube display.
I went from a 65" HD RPTV to a 42" EDTV plasma and I have to say that I can't tell a lot of difference. There is some, but not much.
There are plenty of people on this board who have purchased EDTV's even though they are savvy about HDTV, 720p, and 1080i. To many the difference in picture is not worth the couple of thousand difference in price. Remember, EDTV sets can accept HD signals (check with each specific set). So you can watch HD material, although it will be downconverted to 480P. My EDTV will accept both 720p and 1080i signals.
Due to the size of our room, my wife did not want to go bigger than 42". At that size, the economics of HDTV plasma don't make sense. The 42" HDTV is not much cheaper than the 50".
Everyone is going to have an opinion on this. My recommendation is to go to a store where you can stand back as far as you will be watching, tweak the sets to your liking and watch both on the same size and see what you think.
In the end it is you that has to be happy with your purchase not everyone on this board.
There are plenty of people on this board who have purchased EDTV's even though they are savvy about HDTV, 720p, and 1080i. To many the difference in picture is not worth the couple of thousand difference in price. Remember, EDTV sets can accept HD signals (check with each specific set). So you can watch HD material, although it will be downconverted to 480P. My EDTV will accept both 720p and 1080i signals.
Due to the size of our room, my wife did not want to go bigger than 42". At that size, the economics of HDTV plasma don't make sense. The 42" HDTV is not much cheaper than the 50".
Everyone is going to have an opinion on this. My recommendation is to go to a store where you can stand back as far as you will be watching, tweak the sets to your liking and watch both on the same size and see what you think.
In the end it is you that has to be happy with your purchase not everyone on this board.
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Per your request Dusty. 
Check R Harkness's post on page 2 of the thread below, it gives you a good idea why companies are still making ED sets and users are still buying them.
In regards to the search function, I just did a search for EDTV vs. HDTV. I'm not sure why this thread didn't come up for you, but the search function is a bit wacky.
-JR
EDTV vs. HDTV
Check R Harkness's post on page 2 of the thread below, it gives you a good idea why companies are still making ED sets and users are still buying them.In regards to the search function, I just did a search for EDTV vs. HDTV. I'm not sure why this thread didn't come up for you, but the search function is a bit wacky.
-JR
EDTV vs. HDTV
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I said that people buy it because of economics or that they can't tell a difference. The question was asked and I answered the question from the standpoint of a person who sells display and also who interviews many, nmany people about what they think that they want, what they can afford, what kind of room will it be in, what are the lighting conditions, etc. I do not tell them what to do. I make recommendations and that's why they are talking to me in the first place, because they don't have as much info and are afraid of making a mistake. I did recommend ED plasmas to two people and both came back to me later and chastised me for selling it to them. They said that I should have known better and with more and more HD content coming available I should have recommended a display device that supported all of the resolutions. So I quit recommending or selling them for that reason. I send them to Costco, SAMS or whatever and if they don't like it in 6 months because they have seen friends true HD displays and are unhappy, then they can't blame me. In fact a friend bought a $300,000 houseboat (very nice) but guess what? They had installed an ED plasma and he didnt like it and asked them why and they said to hold down costs. So he bought a 42 inch Fujitsu from me and put the 42 inch DE plasma in the bedroom because all he normally watches their is the news or weather while he is getting dressed. I am not telling you anything. You can go to another thread for all I care. I am only answering the question that was posed. Then if anyone reading this thread wants to go ahead and buy an ED display then go right ahead with my blessing because at least you have heard all of the pros and cons which you need to have in order to make an informed decision. I'm only trying to help by pointing out that someone else other than you might be able to discern a difference and may want to lay out a few extra dollars to get that difference.
Looks like someone trying to sell Fujitsus to me. From my experience, people will see what they want to see. If you tell them that an HD plasma looks better than an ED one on HD content, they will think they see a difference. Some just like to brag that "I have an HD plasma not an ED one!" I have encountered this over the years with high end audio, where people have picked a $12,000 set of speakers over one that costs a lot less just so they can brag about how much money they spent and refused to listen to what their ears told them. Yes I liked the cheaper one more but I want to brag to my friends about how much money I spent. As someone with alot of experience in this area, provided you are sitting over 8 feet away, there is no real discernable difference between a very good ED plasma ( I am partial to Panasonic BTW) and the same manufacturer's HD model. If you have to sit 6 feet and in, the HD would be marginally better due to the screen door effect. Regarding the Fujitsu's, when I purchased my 42" Panasonic 4UY 21/2 years ago, I compared it to the ED and HD Fujitsu's. I went to a high end store in Delaware (Overture) and spent an hour or so with a friend checking out the Fujitsu's and we both came away liking the ED better than the HD. The next time I went a month or two later, the store no longer had the 42 HD on display as everyone who came in thought the ED looked better at a substantial savings so they stopped selling them unless someone had to have one. I would love to have people like plasmamniac to a blind test at 9 feet to see if they can correctly pick out an Panasonic ED vs. a Panasonic HD plasma. Why spend the extra money if you do not have to? It makes more sense to me to spend the extra money on the 50" vs the 42HD set.
And, I say, let people decide for themselves what to spend their money on. They will read all sides here and that is as it should be. There eyes (and ears) must make the final decision. Whether you are buying a loaf of bread or a new car just decide for yourself. Take other peoples' opinions for what they are..opinions.
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I would love to take the test. Also, if you do a little research you will see that the standard against which all plasmas are measured is the Fujitsu. It's considered to be the best. I also think that the Panasonics are a great product and the Pioneer Elite. Not everyone can afford them but you have to look at your budget and see if their is a DIFFERENCE to YOU no ME and if there is a DIFFERENCE, is it worth the MONEY. Maybe, maybe not. You make the money so you should make the decision how to spend it. There are a lot of other things to spend money on in the entertainment arena so you have to spread your allocations. I want my customers to make an informed decision and I will not make it for them. I can't tell you how many people have come to my home and saw my 50" Fujitus and tell me that their plasma does not look as good as mine and I ask them what kind they have and what did they pay for it. They tell me that they paid alot less and I tell them, there you go. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. Fujitsus are not considered to be among the best for the price for no reason. It has a great scaler which cheaper plasmas have and by the way it uses Panasonic glass which is a great part of a plasma. But you have to look at what goes into the processor also. It's your money spend it the way that you want to but please make an informed decision not just based on the amount of money that you will spend.
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Hi folks.
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If that is a report on your experience selling plasmas to customers that's totally fair. But maybe it should read more like "my customers tend to buy ED plasmas for these reasons..." rather than "here's why people buy ED plasmas..."
You just have to be careful making those type of statements on a forum filled with people who own the ED plasma, and who understand thoroughly why they own it. I've seen countless interactions of customers with salesmen about plasmas, and the vast majority of those customers were not AV aficionados who inform themselves through rigorous research, as is the case with most folks on this board. That is why, perhaps, the reasoning on this board doesn't necessarily match those of your customers (although sometimes it certainly does).
I didn't buy an ED plasma because my I relaxed my criteria for image quality. I bought it because I kept my personal criteria high.
In my home theater environment (in a small room) I watch movies, as many HT people do, with the lights low or out. Like many a HT geek before me I understood the values of appropriately deep black levels to maintaining a dimensional image, especially under such conditions.
When testing plasmas over two years ago, financially I had the choice of buying any 42" model out there, including any Hi-Def model. I tested practically every 42/43" model. I ended up choosing the Panny ED model because:
1. It was one of only two 42" plasmas in the entire marketplace that did close-to-crt black levels. I found that made a significant difference in my viewing enjoyment, given that I watch in low light conditions.
2. The other 42" plasma that did the same black levels was Panasonic's 42" HD model. However, direct comparisons showed me the ED actually looked better to me - more precise, with smoother-looking scaling - with both cable signals and DVDs. Given those were the two sources that by far would comprise my family's viewing, that made it a no-brainer.
Hi-Def? We have a high-def cable box, and like the next guy I'd like everything I watch to be in Hi-Def too. But despite breathless promises over the years, there is still little of the content we actually want to watch in Hi-Def. So I find myself flicking to the HD channels just occasionally, more for a bit of eye-candy. And the ED does an amazing job with HD signals too.
As an AV geek and movie fan, I have been tremendously happy that I went with this panel over any of the Hi-Def 42/43" displays. And I bet I watch with a lot more critical eye than many of plasmamaniac's plasma customers. The reason is that even today, all other companies are still playing catch up in trying to achieve the black levels/contrast that the Panny ED has offered me for years. (Not to mention the sheer smoothness of scaling DVDs). I continue to demo the latest plasmas and haven't found a similar-sized HD panel yet that I'd choose over the Panny ED. (In fact I wrote recently about getting to demo Pioneer's yet-to-arrive-in-the-stores, new generation of 50" panel. As truly great as that panel was with my demo DVDs, the black levels of my Panny ED still allowed it to do some things better image-wise than even the very expensive HD Pioneer model could muster. Personally, I would keep my Panny over the Pioneer until Pioneer catches up with the black levels.).
When I finally do replace the ED model, I'll buy it at a much lower cost than I paid for the Panny ED. (In fact, I can now buy the 50" Panny on-line for significantly less than I paid for the ED).
All in all, it's been a thoroughly satisfying purchase, and definitely not made out of naivete, lack of acuity or lack of being able to buy the HD model. I know other Panny ED owners on this board share a similar story.
Cheers,
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| Originally posted by plasmamaniac I said that people buy it because of economics or that they can't tell a difference. |
You just have to be careful making those type of statements on a forum filled with people who own the ED plasma, and who understand thoroughly why they own it. I've seen countless interactions of customers with salesmen about plasmas, and the vast majority of those customers were not AV aficionados who inform themselves through rigorous research, as is the case with most folks on this board. That is why, perhaps, the reasoning on this board doesn't necessarily match those of your customers (although sometimes it certainly does).
I didn't buy an ED plasma because my I relaxed my criteria for image quality. I bought it because I kept my personal criteria high.
In my home theater environment (in a small room) I watch movies, as many HT people do, with the lights low or out. Like many a HT geek before me I understood the values of appropriately deep black levels to maintaining a dimensional image, especially under such conditions.
When testing plasmas over two years ago, financially I had the choice of buying any 42" model out there, including any Hi-Def model. I tested practically every 42/43" model. I ended up choosing the Panny ED model because:
1. It was one of only two 42" plasmas in the entire marketplace that did close-to-crt black levels. I found that made a significant difference in my viewing enjoyment, given that I watch in low light conditions.
2. The other 42" plasma that did the same black levels was Panasonic's 42" HD model. However, direct comparisons showed me the ED actually looked better to me - more precise, with smoother-looking scaling - with both cable signals and DVDs. Given those were the two sources that by far would comprise my family's viewing, that made it a no-brainer.
Hi-Def? We have a high-def cable box, and like the next guy I'd like everything I watch to be in Hi-Def too. But despite breathless promises over the years, there is still little of the content we actually want to watch in Hi-Def. So I find myself flicking to the HD channels just occasionally, more for a bit of eye-candy. And the ED does an amazing job with HD signals too.
As an AV geek and movie fan, I have been tremendously happy that I went with this panel over any of the Hi-Def 42/43" displays. And I bet I watch with a lot more critical eye than many of plasmamaniac's plasma customers. The reason is that even today, all other companies are still playing catch up in trying to achieve the black levels/contrast that the Panny ED has offered me for years. (Not to mention the sheer smoothness of scaling DVDs). I continue to demo the latest plasmas and haven't found a similar-sized HD panel yet that I'd choose over the Panny ED. (In fact I wrote recently about getting to demo Pioneer's yet-to-arrive-in-the-stores, new generation of 50" panel. As truly great as that panel was with my demo DVDs, the black levels of my Panny ED still allowed it to do some things better image-wise than even the very expensive HD Pioneer model could muster. Personally, I would keep my Panny over the Pioneer until Pioneer catches up with the black levels.).
When I finally do replace the ED model, I'll buy it at a much lower cost than I paid for the Panny ED. (In fact, I can now buy the 50" Panny on-line for significantly less than I paid for the ED).
All in all, it's been a thoroughly satisfying purchase, and definitely not made out of naivete, lack of acuity or lack of being able to buy the HD model. I know other Panny ED owners on this board share a similar story.
Cheers,
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plasmamaniac,
what are you talking about? You know very well that ED plasmas DO support all currently used resolutions. Unless you are talking about native resolution in which case your own HD Fujitsu doesn't support 1080i either.
| Originally posted by plasmamaniac .... I did recommend ED plasmas to two people and both came back to me later and chastised me for selling it to them. They said that I should have known better and with more and more HD content coming available I should have recommended a display device that supported all of the resolutions. ... |
what are you talking about? You know very well that ED plasmas DO support all currently used resolutions. Unless you are talking about native resolution in which case your own HD Fujitsu doesn't support 1080i either.
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I'm sorry, but your original post did not list any pros or cons, nor did it offer any helpful advice at all for those trying to decide between a EDTV or HDTV plasma. Posting such disparaging statements as:
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isn't going to help anyone make an informed decision. Many people on this forum get very frustrated in hearing the same old tired arguments as to why people buy EDTV over a true HDTV set. They are usually a variation of:
As JuiceRocket helpfully pointed out, this subject has been covered ad-naseum in many other threads.
Regards,
James
| Originally posted by plasmamaniac You can go to another thread for all I care. I am only answering the question that was posed. Then if anyone reading this thread wants to go ahead and buy an ED display then go right ahead with my blessing because at least you have heard all of the pros and cons which you need to have in order to make an informed decision. |
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| They are usually people who are not very savvy or knowledgeable about A/V and things such as 720P or 1080I. |
- You're too broke to buy a "real" plasma
- You're too stupid to tell the difference
- You thought it would be cool to hang a TV on your wall
As JuiceRocket helpfully pointed out, this subject has been covered ad-naseum in many other threads.
Regards,
James
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I'd also point out that plasmamaniac's (who could dislike a guy with that moniker?) experience of irate ED customers does seem odd. I know quite a few people personally who own ED plasmas. Every one of them is thrilled.
Further, in the years I've been on this forum a hell of a lot of folks have bought the Panny ED. I have seen very few (if any) regrets. In fact, the only regrets I'm aware of is from those who wish they'd bought a bigger-sized plasma. I've never seen anyone here regret buying the Panny ED merely for it's resolution numbers vs a hi-def model.
PS, I've had many salesmen try and recommend that I neglect the Panny ED in favour of "this model here that is true high-definition..." This p*sses me off because they are leaving significant factors affecting picture quality out of the equation just to make themselves feel they've offered something future-proof.
Neither the present nor the future, nor the resolution numbers will magically make that HD display with poorer black levels look good under low-lighting viewing conditions (or displaying scenes with much shadow in the shots). I think that anyone who is told they should buy an HD display "because this TV has higher resolution than that one" is receiving advice that depriveds him of the full story, when it comes to the elements of picture quality.
Further, in the years I've been on this forum a hell of a lot of folks have bought the Panny ED. I have seen very few (if any) regrets. In fact, the only regrets I'm aware of is from those who wish they'd bought a bigger-sized plasma. I've never seen anyone here regret buying the Panny ED merely for it's resolution numbers vs a hi-def model.
PS, I've had many salesmen try and recommend that I neglect the Panny ED in favour of "this model here that is true high-definition..." This p*sses me off because they are leaving significant factors affecting picture quality out of the equation just to make themselves feel they've offered something future-proof.
Neither the present nor the future, nor the resolution numbers will magically make that HD display with poorer black levels look good under low-lighting viewing conditions (or displaying scenes with much shadow in the shots). I think that anyone who is told they should buy an HD display "because this TV has higher resolution than that one" is receiving advice that depriveds him of the full story, when it comes to the elements of picture quality.
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First, I agree some people can tell the difference between a 42" ED and HD at 9 or 10 ft. I find it interesting, I was looking at two 42" Fujitsu - one ED and one HD side by side. I was 10ft away and could not read which was which. The salesman walked up with the "I can easily pick out the HD vs ED - can't you tell the one on the left is obviously HD". I went closer to the sets and the salesman had it reversed, the one on the left was ED! One would think the salesman should have the advantage of knowing which was which from previous experience. Personally both Fujistu's looked awesome at 10ft - and I could not tell the difference "blind". Somehow if I know ahead of time I can see an HD improvement (but not enough to justify the additional cost).
My advise is to compare for yourself and decide which model meets your needs. I definitely started with the attitude that an HD would obviously be better than ED - and an ED would be unacceptable. But, I have changed my mind and the picture quality on a 42" ED will meet my needs.
JCPZero
| Originally posted by JWhip I would love to have people like plasmamniac to a blind test at 9 feet to see if they can correctly pick out an Panasonic ED vs. a Panasonic HD plasma. |
My advise is to compare for yourself and decide which model meets your needs. I definitely started with the attitude that an HD would obviously be better than ED - and an ED would be unacceptable. But, I have changed my mind and the picture quality on a 42" ED will meet my needs.
JCPZero
Plasmanic: You also said..I refuse to sell ED sets to people; you would send them to BB, etc; they are not discerning customers (who prefer ED displays) and you would not make money on them anyway...This shall be my last statement on this matter today. I tried to convince myself to buy an HD set. I started out to buy an HD set but, after many weeks, of comparing many different combinations, I began to actually like the Panasonic ED display over most other HD sets. At the same price (would never happen) I would have bought a Panasonic HD, of course. At home. now, we watch HD over a Sony direct view and a Panasonic ED and my wife (and friends) enjoy the ED display more. Granted it is larger in size and that is a factor, of course. It is sort of like the debate when solid state amps came out in the 70's. Most everyone said the 'numbers' are much better so the sound will be better. You know what? I still prefer the sound of valve (tubes) and have listened to them all my life. Numbers do side with the HD display as being 'better'. But, in deciding the quality of a piece of equipment there are many more things to consider than..just the numbers. I still prefer 2 great speakers being driven by a tube pre-amp and 2 mono tube amps one foot from the speakers. I spend my money where it gives me the greatest pleasure and satisfaction. And I just happen to believe the Panasonic 42" is great value, and on an obsolute basis (viewing SD and DVD and HD) it is among the best..at 12 feet.
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