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Why Are They Still Making Profile 1.1 Players?

2014 Views 28 Replies 18 Participants Last post by jpmst3, Jan 17, 2008

bbanderic

Discussion Starter · Jan 16, 2008

I saw another thread a list of the new 2008 model Blu-ray players as shown at CES. I noticed that many of them are profile 1.1. I know that profile 1.1 is the Blu-ray "final" standard but why must they screw around and not just make 2.0 capable players only? It makes absolutely no sense to me. Especially when the lowest end HD-DVD players are so much cheaper (150.00) and 2.0 profile, standard, out of the box. The cost of making the players 2.0 can't be that much more costly.

My main issue is that for Blu-ray to get mass adaption of the Blu-ray format, I think they should elininate the confusion, increase BD compatability between players, and make firmware updates easier for the average Joe, having an ethernet port standard will go a long way in doing that. Most average people don't want to be bothered with burning a CD and installing new firmware from that, along with a warning of "do so at your own risk". Hooking up to the internet and doing it , that's doable.

I own a PS3 and want to see Blu-ray succeed on a much bigger scale but I think they're hurting themselves with all of these profiles.

I know many of the new 2008 models are profile 2.0 as well as 1.1 but beyond 2008, starting in 2009, do you guys think all of the players will be 2.0?

1 - 20 of 29 Posts

namechamps

· #2 · Jan 16, 2008

$$$

BD launched 2 years ago and new players cost $600 - $1000.

At CES 2008 we see lots of BD 1.1 player costing $600-$2000. The 1.0 players are being discontinued and sell for $300 or less.

In a year or so we will see BD 2.0 players being touted exclusively and costing $600-$1000. BD 1.1 players will be discontinued and sell for $300-$500.

The whole BD profile nightmare is a CE companies wet dream. Selling products that are obsolete before they even start selling them. I mean if you could do it would you?

Macfan424

· #3 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbanderic /forum/post/12834825

...make firmware updates easier for the average Joe, having an ethernet port standard will go a long way in doing that. Most average people don't want to be bothered with burning a CD and installing new firmware from that, hooking up to the internet and doing it , that's doable...

Most "average people" don't want to be bothered with hooking up their DVD player to the internet via ethernet, either.

In fact, most "average people" don't care about the 2.0 features, or even the 1.1 additions. They just want to play movies, simply and without fuss.

bbanderic

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps /forum/post/12834965

$$$

BD launched 2 years ago and new players cost $600 - $1000.

At CES 2008 we see lots of BD 1.1 player costing $600-$2000. The 1.0 players are being discontinued and sell for $300 or less.

In a year or so we will see BD 2.0 players being touted exclusively and costing $600-$1000. BD 1.1 players will be discontinued and sell for $300-$500.

The whole BD profile nightmare is a CE companies wet dream. Selling products that are obsolete before they even start selling them. I mean if you could do it would you?

I think those profile 1.1 price estimates you have quoted are a little high, many of the 2008 models haven't been priced yet, but I get your point.

I don't see how selling obsolete or potentially problematic players benefits CE companys, I see it as pissing off the consumer and alienating them. Then again, you may be right because I see no other logical reason not to make 2.0 players only.

bbanderic

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 /forum/post/12835076

Most "average people" don't want to be bothered with hooking up their DVD player to the internet via ethernet, either.

In fact, most "average people" don't care about the 2.0 features, or even the 1.1 additions. They just want to play movies, simply and without fuss.

I agree, but that's where technology is headed. Personally I don't care about the 1.1 or 2.0 features either, I just want to watch the movie. However, I'm mainly speaking to the compatability issue, for instance, the well known problematic playback of BD-Java discs on the 1.0 players.

jamesm1

· #6 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps /forum/post/12834965

$$$

BD launched 2 years ago and new players cost $600 - $1000.

At CES 2008 we see lots of BD 1.1 player costing $600-$2000. The 1.0 players are being discontinued and sell for $300 or less.

In a year or so we will see BD 2.0 players being touted exclusively and costing $600-$1000. BD 1.1 players will be discontinued and sell for $300-$500.

The whole BD profile nightmare is a CE companies wet dream. Selling products that are obsolete before they even start selling them. I mean if you could do it would you?

I couldn't have stated it better

The Samsung story is a prime example of this philosophy

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jpmst3

· #7 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 /forum/post/12835076

Most "average people" don't want to be bothered with hooking up their DVD player to the internet via ethernet, either.

In fact, most "average people" don't care about the 2.0 features, or even the 1.1 additions. They just want to play movies, simply and without fuss.

Exactly, I just want to watch the damn movie.

If the movie is crap, adding PiP and web content isn't going to make it any good. In fact, if they could eliminate the mandatory previews on some disks that would be an improvement too.

That is one of the weeknesses of the Blu-ray format. They rushed it all out without finalization in an effort to compete with HD DVD. That gamble may have paid off long term, but it will cost consumers in the near term, as usual.

TheSimplePanda

· #8 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 /forum/post/12835611

Exactly, I want to watch the damn movie. If the movie is crap, adding PiP and web content isn't going to make it any good.

Don't tell Toshiba - their entire HD-DVD strategy hinges on the fact that people would rather connect to the web to muck with a TV remote about then watch their copy of Transformers with lossless audio.

Macfan424

· #9 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbanderic /forum/post/12835186

I agree, but that's where technology is headed. Personally I don't care about the 1.1 or 2.0 features either, I just want to watch the movie. However, I'm mainly speaking to the compatability issue, for instance, the well known problematic playback of BD-Java discs on the 1.0 players.

Lack of backward compatibility is an example of the format shooting itself in the foot.

The BD group should be enforcing standards that insist all software be 100% backward compatible for routine functions. Then they should encourage development of a simple, basic, no frills player that can be sold for less than $200. Reserve the "geeky" features for upscale players that can be sold to the relatively few consumers that care about them.

Otherwise, BD and HD will join the ranks of failed formats, like SACD and DVD-A, beloved by a few, irrelevant to most.

b.greenway

· #10 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 /forum/post/12835076

Most "average people" don't want to be bothered with hooking up their DVD player to the internet via ethernet, either.

In fact, most "average people" don't care about the 2.0 features, or even the 1.1 additions. They just want to play movies, simply and without fuss.

Most "average people" people don't want HDM.

HD-king

· #11 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 /forum/post/12835689

Lack of backward compatibility is an example of the format shooting itself in the foot.

The BD group should be enforcing standards that insist all software be 100% backward compatible for routine functions. Then they should encourage development of a simple, basic, no frills player that can be sold for less than $200. Reserve the "geeky" features for upscale players that can be sold to the relatively few consumers that care about them.

Otherwise, BD and HD will join the ranks of failed formats, like SACD and DVD-A, beloved by a few, irrelevant to most.

Please quote a reputable source where they say 2.0 authored disks WILL NOT PLAY IN 1.0 or 1.1 players.

Wait, 2.0 disks will play fine in 1.0 and 1.1 players. Get your facts straight.

Macfan424

· #12 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 /forum/post/12835611

...That is one of the weeknesses of the Blu-ray format. They rushed it all out without finalization in an effort to compete with HD DVD. That gamble may have paid off long term, but it will cost consumers in the near term, as usual.

They probably viewed it as a marketing imperative, not a gamble, but you're right. Another reason the format war has been so counterproductive. Since consumers are quite happy with conventional DVDs, there is the danger that making the few new generation format supporters pay for the developers' errors may kill off the whole high definition disc concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimplePanda /forum/post/12835640

Don't tell Toshiba - their entire HD-DVD strategy hinges on the fact that people would rather connect to the web to muck with a TV remote about then watch their copy of Transformers with lossless audio.

How's that working out for them?

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blainehamilton

· #13 · Jan 16, 2008

The disks will be backwards compatible, with notable exceptions that always happen. Hell, BD+ threw a monkeywrench into things that had movie studios and CEs both pointing fingers and laying blame.

The overall experience will suck. No extras on a BD1.0 player, and nothing online with a BD1.1 model. A game system or a +$500 player later this year is what you will be stuck with for choices...

Don't even get me started on Samsung, my BDP1200 is a major thorn in my side right now. Playback issues alone are enough.

BD1.0 -> BD1.1 -> BD2.0 -> BDx.x is a guaranteed revenue stream for CEs making players for the next 12 to 18 months at least. The new models will guarantee a high release price, and the unforunate 'value consious' consumers will get burned by obsolete technology in the low cost clearance ones unless they really do their homework.

Macfan424

· #14 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by HD-king /forum/post/12835729

Please quote a reputable source where they say 2.0 authored disks WILL NOT PLAY IN 1.0 or 1.1 players.

Wait, 2.0 disks will play fine in 1.0 and 1.1 players. Get your facts straight.

Everyone insists the new discs will play in old players, and I hope they are right because I own a 1.1 player, but experience has demonstrated that it doesn't always work out that way in practice. The aforementioned problems with java disc in 1.0 players is one example, the issues with 1.1 discs (even on 1.1 players) is another. It shouldn't be necessary to upgrade the player's firmware to play a new disc.

And one would think that a Panasonic authored 1.1 Blu-Ray would play on a new Panasonic 1.1 player, but ask DMP-BD30 owners how well "Sunshine" plays for them.

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jvillain

· #15 · Jan 16, 2008

Can we change the name of this thread to "I didn't think we had enough crap on BD threads so decided to start yet another", so people don't waste their time like I just did..

Macfan424

· #16 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by blainehamilton /forum/post/12835940

The disks will be backwards compatible, with notable exceptions that always happen...

It's the exceptions I am taking exception to.

Selling a new technology that is in greater demand by the seller (studios looking for a way to offset flat DVD sales trends) than by the consumer (perfectly content with SD DVDs) requires extra care.

I believe -- for their own good -- the BD group should have insisted on 100% backwards compatibility, not 90% or 95% or 99%. You can play any current CD on your first generation CD player (if you have one that still works). The same is true of SD DVDs with early players. You may not have random play or progressive scan, but the discs still play music or movies without a hitch.

But such care was lost in the rush to market, and the technology remains irrelevant to the public at large, while the BD group risks alienating the early adopters, the very people they are counting on to lead the mass market into acceptance. And, of course, it won't be any kind of revenue stream it it fails. Again, I reference SACD and DVD-A.

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Richard Paul

· #17 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbanderic /forum/post/12834825

I saw another thread a list of the new 2008 model Blu-ray players as shown at CES. I noticed that many of them are profile 1.1. I know that profile 1.1 is the Blu-ray "final" standard but why must they screw around and not just make 2.0 capable players only?

Because unlike Toshiba the Blu-ray CE companies are actually trying to make a profit on their players. For instance every stand alone HD DVD player for under $500 is either from Toshiba or is a Toshiba rebadge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbanderic /forum/post/12834825

I know many of the new 2008 models are profile 2.0 as well as 1.1 but beyond 2008, starting in 2009, do you guys think all of the players will be 2.0?

It is all about the issue of cost and profit. The Blu-ray CE companies have to pay for all the development, production, and support that goes into their Blu-ray players. That means that even adding something like BD-Live to a player, which most likely has a production cost under $10, would add a lot to the player cost because of development and support costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps /forum/post/12834965

BD launched 2 years ago and new players cost $600 - $1000.

At CES 2008 we see lots of BD 1.1 player costing $600-$2000. The 1.0 players are being discontinued and sell for $300 or less.

namechamps, if you are going to post BS about Blu-ray you should at least know enough not to do it in the Blu-ray players section of the forum. The first generation Blu-ray players cost $1000+, the second generation Blu-ray players cost $500+, and the third generation Blu-ray players cost $300+ so there is definitely a lowering of price as time goes on. For instance the Funai Blu-ray player is going to sell for around $300 and the Philips Blu-ray player is going to sell for $350. Both players are Profile 1.1 players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps /forum/post/12834965

Selling products that are obsolete before they even start selling them. I mean if you could do it would you?

Well considering that HD DVD has less capacity, less bandwidth, less CE support, less studio support, and a high probability of becoming an obsolete format I would say that Toshiba has been doing that for a while.

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Rob9874

· #18 · Jan 16, 2008

Just more reason to buy PS3. I'm assuming $399 is cheaper than other 1.1 players? And the free upgrade to 2.0 in the future will be nice, too.

namechamps

· #19 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul /forum/post/12836354

namechamps, if you are going to post BS about Blu-ray you should at least know enough not to do it in the Blu-ray players section of the forum. The first generation Blu-ray players cost $1000+, the second generation Blu-ray players cost $500+, and the third generation Blu-ray players cost $300+ so there is definitely a lowering of price as time goes on. For instance the Funai Blu-ray player is going to sell for around $300 and the Philips Blu-ray player is going to sell for $350. Both players are Profile 1.1 players.

Cry me a river. I can't believe that some people are such fanboys that they believe making consumers buy the same player over and over to get all the features (both profiles & audio decoders) is a good thing for anyone except the CE.

Just for the record you are wrong about the pricing. The S300 & DMP-BD10 (BD1.0 players) had an MSRP of $499 & $599. Look at BD 1.1 players, the S500 & DMP-BD30 had MSRP of $549 & $499. However the DMP-BD30 drops all internal decoding. Likely with internal decoding the DMP-BD30 would be similar in price to the 1.0 version (DMP-BD10). One year between players and essentially no drop in prices. Now there is only 1 BD 2.0 player announced - DMP-BD50 and guess what the estimated MSRP is $499-$599. 2 years after launch and BD 2.0 players are selling for essentially the same prices as BD1.0 & BD1.1 player did.

Quote:
Well considering that HD DVD has less capacity, less bandwidth, less CE support, less studio support, and a high probability of becoming an obsolete format I would say that Toshiba has been doing that for a while.

You feel like a big kid now. Since when was this thread about HD DVD. Even if HD DVD never existed the whole profile and incomplete decoder support nonsense would have still have been a pain in the ass.

I think Warner's decision has killed HD DVD but this topic has nothing to do with format war or HD DVD. It is sad that fanboys will defend stupid decision because they were done by "their side" because they don't want to make it look like the "enemies side" is doing better. For what it is worth I have an DMP-BD30 on the way. I think it is the best of a confusing set of partially complete products. It would have been nice if the DMP-BD50 (BD live, full decoder support, 8 channel analog) had been available a year ago (even if it had cost $1000).

I don't work for Toshiba and I don't work for the the BDA so I really don't give a damn. Not everything is about red vs blue fanboy stupidity, sometimes a crap deal for the consumer is just that a crap deal. The sad thing is had there been no "format war" many of the people (like you) standing up to "defend" these stupid profile decisions would instead be complaining about them. However the "can't break ranks" mentality prevails over common sense.

BTW: These are multi-billion dollar companies. They don't need you or anyone else to "defend" them. Grow up.

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Rakesh.S

· #20 · Jan 16, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps /forum/post/12834965

$$$

BD launched 2 years ago and new players cost $600 - $1000.

At CES 2008 we see lots of BD 1.1 player costing $600-$2000. The 1.0 players are being discontinued and sell for $300 or less.

In a year or so we will see BD 2.0 players being touted exclusively and costing $600-$1000. BD 1.1 players will be discontinued and sell for $300-$500.

The whole BD profile nightmare is a CE companies wet dream. Selling products that are obsolete before they even start selling them. I mean if you could do it would you?

I agree 100% or as everyone around here likes to say ..." +1 "

Moving target = CE mfgr's win = consumers have to keep rebuying equipment

1 - 20 of 29 Posts

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