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Discussion Starter #1
I really don't like the way that most 480i material looks line doubled. Why can't HDTV's display it in its normal mode like my old big screen did? It looked much better that way.
 

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How many more posts are you going to put in record time? Are you just trying to rack up posts or what? Almost 200 posts in a month? Come on......


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Kipp


IS THAT A REMOTE CONTROL IN YOUR POCKET OR ARE YOU JUST HAPPY TO SEE HDTV?
 

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Hmmmm. Better?


I think what you are complining about is the inabiity for line doublers to effectively emulate the characteristics of a low bandwidth tube (common television CRT) when displaying 480i on a high bandwidth display (any variety).


I don't think simply displaying 480i on an HDTV would give you the desired effect. For a good idea of what such a picture might look like here's an idea.


I'll assume you have a PC. Try to set up your PC graphics output into a very low resolution mode on a monitor with high resolution cabability. Old MSDOS programs in 25 line mode set to full screen is a great example.


If you do this you will notice huge gaping holes in between the lines. It will look like you are viewing the picture through blinds. This is because the spot beam is much smaller than the distance between scan lines.


I would assume this is what you would get if the feature you asked for existed. In fact check out an SD RPTV over 50" and that is exactly what you will see.


If you prefer this, then I have no technical argument to counter your point. I think it is safe to assume that the HDTV makers all decided this is not what customers want. So lets hope for better line doublers in the future or better yet the elimination of 480i altogether! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Rick

 

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Discussion Starter #4
yes i realize their are those lines in between but they give the illusion of a better picture. I actually prefer my old 50" standard definition TV for 480i stuff compared to my new 55" HDTV.
 

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What is it you don't like? Is it deinterlacing artifcats? That can be annoying. What 480i sources are you looking at? If its mostly dvd, have you considered a progressive scan DVD player?


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Alex
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Savageone79:
I really don't like the way that most 480i material looks line doubled. Why can't HDTV's display it in its normal mode like my old big screen did? It looked much better that way.
The reason is cost. In order for the TV to swing from a 15khz scan rate all the way up to 33khz rates requires a dual winding defelction yoke and possibly duplicate circuits in the horizontal deflection system. This is a big cost in consumer manufacturing. To spite the complexity, it's actually cheaper to install a line doubler chip sor chip set that is an easy to produce price of silicon.


The new Sony broadcast grade monitors can work at both scan rates but these units cost over $10K for a 20" model.

 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Savageone79:
I really don't like the way that most 480i material looks line doubled. Why can't HDTV's display it in its normal mode like my old big screen did? It looked much better that way.
Why don't you just buy a TV that does a better job of displaying 480i? NTSC looks great on my Pioneer Elite.


-Jonathan
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by HTnut:
Why would you care how many posts he has??? Does that really matter? If you werent going to try answer the question.... why post anything at all to the thread?
I care because a lot of his posts are repeating existing post subjects and that clutters up this forum. Why not stick to what's existing like everyone else? Lets follow some etiquette here please.




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Kipp


IS THAT A REMOTE CONTROL IN YOUR POCKET OR ARE YOU JUST HAPPY TO SEE HDTV?
 

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The name for what Glimmie is talking about is "MULTISYNC."


This means that a PJ/Monitor/Display can sync onto any frequency (hortizontal and vertical) that is within the range of the electronics. Sometimes you will see specs like;


Hortizontal Sync: 15.75 to 65 kHz


This means the unit can and usually will sync onto ANY H. Sync within that range. It will sync to 45 kHz but it will not sync to 68 kHz.


As pointed out...it is more expensive to allow this feature and TV manufacturers are trying to make money and with the quanities that they deal in...$100 can add up to $1,000,000.


Lee
 

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I am not aware of anyone raising this issue before, and I do believe that it is an important one.


The best NTSC large screen monitor I have seen is the Sony PVM3230--now long out of production.

This broadcast monitor had an MSRP of ~$4K.

Large dish satellite feeds, laserdiscs, DVDs; hell, even downconverted HD from the Unity Motion STB via Focus Enhancements Gold looked fantastic.


The Princeton AF3.0HD that replaced it looked great for HD sources but horrendous with internal line doubled NTSC, and only marginally better with the Crystal Image.


The Panasonic DT-M3050W that replaced the Princeton is a true multisync that displays NTSC at its native 15.75.

While HD sources look only marginally better than on the Princeton, NTSC sources are infinitely more watchable on the Panasonic. Not as good as the Sony for sure, but significantly better than any other HD monitor that I have yet seen.


Truth be told: Clean, noncompressed NTSC sources like DVDs,laserdiscs,and C/Ku satellite look a helluva lot better natively than compressed SD sources.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Sorry if people feel i am repeating posts but I do not believe so. Most of my posts are in response to other peoples post and the few that i do start i usually search for the answer first. I am sure there is an occasion or two that a topic was covered a long time ago and I am sorry if this bothers anyone.
 

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For what it's worth, the Panasonics that came out last year give you the option to turn the line doubler off if you want (game mode.)


I would assume that other tvs had similar options. Though the Panasonics one also did 720p as well as 1080i and were able to multisync without any problem.


They did drop these features because they added a lot of cost to the set and they couldn't compete pricewise.
 

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Computer monitors, as well as fpcrt, have "multisynced" for so long I took the capability for granted without thinking of what it takes to give them this capability.


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Alex
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by kippjones:
I care because a lot of his posts are repeating existing post subjects and that clutters up this forum. Why not stick to what's existing like everyone else? Lets follow some etiquette here please.
I kind of agree. People should at least attempt a couple searches to see if their question/subject has already been discussed in a previous thread before creating a new thread. I think some people are just too ignorant or lazy to do that.


 

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Hi Kipp. I actually learned something:

Quote:
The reason is cost. In order for the TV to swing from a 15khz scan rate all the way up to 33khz rates requires a dual winding defelction yoke and possibly duplicate circuits in the horizontal deflection system. This is a big cost in consumer manufacturing.
I didn't appreciate it was that hard. Thanks Glimmie.


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Alex
 
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