[penngray]

My Amps are as follows.....


Buttkicker 1000

eD LT/1300

SC-1250

EP2500

QSC1850

Crown Xti4000

FACE F1200TS


I have 4 18" drivers in an IB array (two are wired to 4 ohms so I run them into two channels on the amps that have two channels and I run only two into other single channel amps like the Buttkicker or eD LT/1300)


After moving stuff, lifting stuff around, giving my self one hell of a work out to test the different amps I have just concluded that for the

The buttkicker 1000 is measured to have huge distortion down low....The Crown and Face should be low distortion but I do not hear the difference between the two and my buttkicker just seems to give me more output.


Over the past year, I have read everything I can, I have spend money testing stuff and swapping out AVRs, amps and so on but in my situation the Cheaper amps perform just as well as the more expensive amps....


What gives?? I hear rave reviews from people upgrading from the buttkicker or the EP to a crown amp so I think, GREAT! I will spend some money (thats always fun

) and give myself a little upgrade too.


The Face amp has been sent off to chuck for testing but I swapped the other amps in and out to try and see which one I liked the best...


the winner this weekend was two buttkickers.....WTF!!!!


I know the problems that exist with the buttkickers so they definitely are not the solution but its just interesting.


Also understand the reliability question, sometimes you pay for something to work 10 years not just 3 or 4. I understand that and Im sure the Crown and FACE just last a long time although modding them to make them silent does possibly void warranties

 

[Willd]

The BKA may seem to give more output beccause A) it has a consumer level RCA input and B) the increased distortion may be perceived as more output.


But hey, if you like the BKAs that much, no worries.


Thanks for sending a FACE amp to Chuck for testing.

 

[DS-21]

Amp distortion, even in such a big system, is likely more than swamped by driver distortion in the bass.


The only reason to pick the XTi over any of the other ones is the DSP. That value-added bit aside, they're all just commodities. People would do well to spend less time kvetching about amps.

 

[penngray]



Quote:
The BKA may seem to give more output beccause A) it has a consumer level RCA input and B) the increased distortion may be perceived as more output.


But hey, if you like the BKAs that much, no worries.


Thanks for sending a FACE amp to Chuck for testing.

I edited the above, I dont want to use the BKAs long term, I picked two up recently just to test and I was keeping one to try with some buttkickers.


Im not sure I even want to keep that since more BKAs keep going up in flames!!!

Quote:
That value-added bit aside, they're all just commodities. People would do well to spend less time kvetching about amps.

Yeah but I like to know what products are they best choice and so I dont mind buying things and reselling.


I just felt it was worth the discussion. I dont want arguement over it either, Will gave me a great point...distortion = output.


Its hard to hear distortion at low levels...maybe that is what Im hearing but its not a bad sound so I dont know.

 

[tundrSQ]

I didn't notice any real palpable difference when i switched from BKA to XTI. But I also leave it running 24/7 and never wake up thinking abotu it catching on fire either. Plus I have an onboard 6 band EQ and sub synth, plus 2 shelving filters that I don't even know what they do yet...PLUS dsp.

That said I think most people would be better served with a simple high quality plate amp. In fact should I ever sell my XTI that will be where I head next.


And like you said , this isn't meant to start a flame war

 

[NEO Dan]

Metaphorically I'll compare the BKA to a guitar distortion pedal. If people didn't like the sound of distortion things like EFX pedals wouldn't exist. IMO it's hard to separate the want for a certain sound from the purity of reproduction.

 

[Willd]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 /forum/post/14225352


Amp distortion, even in such a big system, is likely more than swamped by driver distortion in the bass.

I am not so sure. The BKA had ~14% distortion at 4ohms around 500W, IIRC. Penn has four 18" FiCar drivers.

 

[Spezzy]

From what I've read, if you buy a newer Buttkicker amp they do not have the same problems. The more recent burning amp problem posted under the subwoofer section was an older amp from the batch that had the bad capacitors going out.


Oh, and regarding the amps. You're really not going much higher in power with the amps shown above. Maybe a couple hundred watts over the other, except maybe with the F1200.


If I were you (and had the proper amperage available) I'd try out 2x QSC 5050s or their PL series of amps.

 

[kingpin111]



Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/14225318


Why can't I feel or hear the difference in amps??

Reply to Thread

It's because you're not an audiophile man. Your ears are unworthy.

Or, just maybe, you're a normal human being without superhuman audiophile hearing who can't tell that .00001% difference of distortion that is not audible.


ALL THIS SAID WITH TONGUE IN CHEEK.

Mike

 

[Willd]



Quote:
Or, just maybe, you're a normal human being without superhuman audiophile hearing who can't tell that .00001% difference of distortion that is not audible.

That might would apply, but the difference in distortion is FAR more than .00001%. Try 10 to 14%. And then there is SNR, and FR differences.

 

[DS-21]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd /forum/post/14225826


I am not so sure. The BKA had ~14% distortion at 4ohms around 500W, IIRC. Penn has four 18" FiCar drivers.

But with 4 I-B 18's, I doubt he'll be using nearly that much power to attain staggering levels. Unless its distortion is equally as high at 20W or 1W, I'm not sure it would be a factor. In a small sealed/LT'ed sub, different story.

 

[Mark Seaton]

Hi penngray,


In your listening and comparisons were you even close to clipping any of these amps? Depending on how things are wired and nominal loads, an IB is a VERY easy load for an amplifier to drive, as is obvious if anyone compared the impedance curves and looked at things from a perspective of program material rather than just a single sine wave input.

Most of the differences I have observed in amplifiers is in overload characteristics. This includes peak Voltage and current limits, as well as sustained power delivery. Many of the cheaper amps use transformers rated much less than the rated power, on designs that are well under 90% efficiency. Transformers can deliver multiples their rating for a short duration before current limiting, and in many cases that point isn't reached except when brutal, sustained, demo scenes coincide with impedance minimums.


While I'd have to model it up to confirm, my implication is that your IB is probably efficient enough and easy enough to drive that you merely have to have "enough" power for your use. You will hear frequency response differences which can be load dependent on some amplifiers, but when well under clipping, differences in amplifiers will be more difficult to hear in common subwoofer useage.

 

[Willd]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 /forum/post/14225969


But with 4 I-B 18's, I doubt he'll be using nearly that much power to attain staggering levels. Unless its distortion is equally as high at 20W or 1W, I'm not sure it would be a factor. In a small sealed/LT'ed sub, different story.

True.

 

[Jack Gilvey]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 /forum/post/14225969


But with 4 I-B 18's, I doubt he'll be using nearly that much power to attain staggering levels. Unless its distortion is equally as high at 20W or 1W, I'm not sure it would be a factor. In a small sealed/LT'ed sub, different story.

Bingo. The ~500 clean watts (1% THD @ 554w/4ohm in Chuck's tests) would likely never be reached with a 4x18 IB. I ran my 2x15 IB with a 150w plate amp quite a while...worked fine.

Quote:
What gives?? I hear rave reviews from people upgrading from the buttkicker or the EP to a crown amp so I think, GREAT!

Well, either they're actually tapping into the verified extra power and enjoying the ~3-6dB headroom, or they're riding a pleasant delusion. Very, very difficult to avoid the latter in uncontrolled "auditions".

 

[TheEAR]

Like Mark pointed the IB sub is not much a challenge for any power amp. Even a Walkman can drive an IB .

The low end Behind Kicker (that dobles as smoke generator!!!)is a legendary distortion machine.




Yeah that said your ears are not High-End and not audiophile approved,you should have said... "WOW what a gain in Plecebo WOW !"



Ams do make a difference. Just as a little primitive tests(again)...


I was using a SimAudio Celeste integrated amp with Totem Tabu speakers part of my PC speaker system. I added the new BelCanto integrated (ICE amp modules)...WOW what a gain. Very audible,and the bass control is vastly improved(low to high volume). The amp maintains a firm control over the mid-bass. Never sounds sloppy,defived and taunt more like it. I am very impressed,in fact so mych I am also buying the BelCanto monoblocks and the NuForce monoblocks.


PSSST the time of the efficient amp is upon us.

 

[kgveteran]

The only time I heard and felt a difference was when I setup my system with (4) Adcom 555mkII's powering my (4) Tumults .I thought they were the cats ass (the Adcoms). No fans and plenty of headroom....not. Ed Mullen came by and we threw a bunch of scenes at them and sure enough we played the Monsters Inc scene where "Boo" laughs.We had it up around Odb-/+5db.The amps clipped (all four).


Enter the (4) QSC 1450's.I know they aren't a power house amp, but they have never given me a reason to upgrade due to clipping. Powering the sealed Tumults with +16db of boost from the Marchand BASSIS is quite a task.


Pro amps have a real home in HT now!!!!!



KG

 

[SteveCallas]

As you've seen and has already been mentioned, you'll only notice a difference if you had been driving your previous amps to their limits. You won't hear that in testimonials though, as this is a messed up hobby in which many are more than willing to throw away big bucks chasing some elusive nirvana. These deluded types make up most of the membership of fourms like these.


Side topic, but for as much good as something like RoomEQ has done, it has resulted in a lot of bad as well. How many threads have we seen where people are happy with the way their sub sounds, but the darn FR they are measuring doesn't look perfectly flat? So then they buy more drivers, new amps, build new enclosures, move the subs all around the room, measure for weeks, and then finally get a flatter looking FR. Problem is, now they don't like the sound as much as the way it used to be. They won't admit it, as they've just gone through hell and back, but they know it deep down.


It's even worse with speakers and "hi fi" electronics. Upgraditis = not for me. Enjoy what you have - take what you read here with a lot of salt. $300 can and often does outperform $1000. Ego often takes priority over real performance in this hobby though.

 

[ssabripo]



Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas /forum/post/14236521


Side topic, but for as much good as something like RoomEQ has done, it has resulted in a lot of bad as well. How many threads have we seen where people are happy with the way their sub sounds, but the darn FR they are measuring doesn't look perfectly flat? So then they buy more drivers, new amps, build new enclosures, move the subs all around the room, measure for weeks, and then finally get a flatter looking FR. Problem is, now they don't like the sound as much as the way it used to be. They won't admit it, as they've just gone through hell and back, but they know it deep down.

dunno what exactly you are alluding to, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant to address me (at least I hope), but in my case, the additional drivers, the new enclosures and topology, the new placement, and the new SQ (pre-EQ) provided a much improved sound over the big ported towers....after EQ and some low end boost, it is sounding pretty much were I want it. And that's with one more enclosure/driver still to come.


There is Chasw98, sma, 6speedTA, who can also attest to this......you know, just in case you doubt it (or doubt me).

 

[whoaru99]

Then, FWIW, there is this to consider, which goes along with the previous distortion comments.

 

[Mark Seaton]



Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas /forum/post/14236521


As you've seen and has already been mentioned, you'll only notice a difference if you had been driving your previous amps to their limits. You won't hear that in testimonials though, as this is a messed up hobby in which many are more than willing to throw away big bucks chasing some elusive nirvana. These deluded types make up most of the membership of fourms like these.


Side topic, but for as much good as something like RoomEQ has done, it has resulted in a lot of bad as well. How many threads have we seen where people are happy with the way their sub sounds, but the darn FR they are measuring doesn't look perfectly flat? So then they buy more drivers, new amps, build new enclosures, move the subs all around the room, measure for weeks, and then finally get a flatter looking FR. Problem is, now they don't like the sound as much as the way it used to be. They won't admit it, as they've just gone through hell and back, but they know it deep down.

In general I agree, although the point of caution and devilish details lie in how much is "enough" (there's almost never enough), as well as the reality that even clip indicators on pro amps are not fully accurate as they integrate over time due to their own response time. At lower frequencies this isn't as much an issue, but it is a significant issue at higher frequencies. There are other complexities that come into play with complex program material that isn't obvious in sine wave testing, although it is something we can correlate and approximate.


On the matter of REQW, I would liken it to the introduction of software modeling of subwoofers and loudspeakers. REQW gives us information in snapshots for given conditions. It doesn't tell us what sounds good. The BS marketing of the past when measurements weren't common have given the impression that ruler flat is always the way to go. In some cases or ranges that works, and in many others maximum enjoyment will come with some massaging. I would say you are inter-mingling additional data with the interpretation of that data. Application and use are still the largest determinants of what is needed or desired.