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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
consider the following two speakers:


subject 1: infinity C336

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/...USA&Country=US


sells for $600 / each


subject 2: revel performa F52

http://www.revelspeakers.com/product...asp?product=25


sells for $6,000 / pair


both are 3 way towers using triple 6" woofers, cone midrange and 1" dome tweeter. both are made by Harman International. but one costs FIVE TIMES AS MUCH as the other.


why ?


well no, it's not about the revel badge. actually there are legitimate differences:


Revel is 17" deep while infinity is 11" deep


Revel weighs 86 lbs while Infinity weighs 56 lbs


Revel has crossover points @ 2.3 khz & 200 hz while infinity has 2.8 khz & 500 hz.


So revel is truly a significantly better speaker ... but how much more does it actually cost to build ? you need about 50% more wood, you need inductors and capacitors that are twice the size for lower crossover point. slightly tighter tolerances for components, slightly better drivers, slightly better finish. all in all it probably would cost ( if both speakers were being built in the same volume ) about 2X more to build the revel - but it sells for 5X more.


therefore it clearly looks as if a DIYer has a much better chance of beating the value offered by the high end speaker than by an entry-level speaker.


C336 is basically a de-tuned version of F56 kinda like it used to be for Camaro vs Corvette. Only Corvette never cost 5X Camaro. It cost 2X as much as it should.


The speaker manufacturer thinks like this: we have 2 types of customers:


1 - people who just want the cheapest speaker - infinity for them


2 - people who just want the best speaker - revel for them


so essentially the same speaker is built in el-cheapo version and in high-end version with 5X difference in price.


now if you were buying commercial speaker you would have to think long and hard - do i get the real deal for $5,000 or not quite the real deal for $1,000.


but if you're BUILDING the speaker - what is there really to think about ? just build the high end version !


a DIYer can't compete against the value of a mass produced product like C336 and win. but he CAN compete and win against the value of a relatively niche product like F52.


Manufacturers have design and marketing costs that are divided by the number of speakers sold. If the speaker is a niche product the cut for each unit may get high. This is the only opportunity for the DIYer to win because a DIYers doesn't have design or marketing costs.


DIYers should only compete against niche high-end products.


this is what DIYers must compete against:

http://www.revelspeakers.com/product...asp?product=27

http://www.diy-av.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&p=633
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasyachkin /forum/post/18297651


consider the following two speakers:


subject 1: infinity C336

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/...USA&Country=US


sells for $600 / each


subject 2: revel performa F52

http://www.revelspeakers.com/product...asp?product=25


sells for $6,000 / pair


both are 3 way towers using triple 6" woofers, cone midrange and 1" dome tweeter. both are made by Harman International. but one costs FIVE TIMES AS MUCH as the other.


why ?


well no, it's not about the revel badge. actually there are legitimate differences:


Revel is 17" deep while infinity is 11" deep


Revel weighs 86 lbs while Infinity weighs 56 lbs


Revel has crossover points @ 2.3 khz & 200 hz while infinity has 2.8 khz & 500 hz.


So revel is truly a significantly better speaker ... but how much more does it actually cost to build ? you need about 50% more wood, you need inductors and capacitors that are twice the size for lower crossover point. slightly tighter tolerances for components, slightly better drivers, slightly better finish. all in all it probably would cost ( if both speakers were being built in the same volume ) about 2X more to build the revel - but it sells for 5X more.


therefore it clearly looks as if a DIYer has a much better chance of beating the value offered by the high end speaker than by an entry-level speaker.


C336 is basically a de-tuned version of F56 kinda like it used to be for Camaro vs Corvette. Only Corvette never cost 5X Camaro. It cost 2X as much as it should.


The speaker manufacturer thinks like this: we have 2 types of customers:


1 - people who just want the cheapest speaker - infinity for them


2 - people who just want the best speaker - revel for them


so essentially the same speaker is built in el-cheapo version and in high-end version with 5X difference in price.


now if you were buying commercial speaker you would have to think long and hard - do i get the real deal for $5,000 or not quite the real deal for $1,000.


but if you're BUILDING the speaker - what is there really to think about ? just build the high end version !


a DIYer can't compete against the value of a mass produced product like C336 and win. but he CAN compete and win against the value of a relatively niche product like F52.


Manufacturers have design and marketing costs that are divided by the number of speakers sold. If the speaker is a niche product the cut for each unit may get high. This is the only opportunity for the DIYer to win because a DIYers doesn't have design or marketing costs.


DIYers should only compete against niche high-end products.


this is what DIYers must compete against:

http://www.revelspeakers.com/product...asp?product=27

http://www.diy-av.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&p=633



Yeah but, that last link was done by a mad Russian. Does that count? Can you do the same analysis for the Carver Amazing and a Apogee ribbon?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasyachkin /forum/post/18297651


consider the following two speakers:


subject 1: infinity C336

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/...USA&Country=US


sells for $600 / each


subject 2: revel performa F52

http://www.revelspeakers.com/product...asp?product=25


sells for $6,000 / pair


both are 3 way towers using triple 6" woofers, cone midrange and 1" dome tweeter. both are made by Harman International. but one costs FIVE TIMES AS MUCH as the other.


why ?


well no, it's not about the revel badge. actually there are legitimate differences:


Revel is 17" deep while infinity is 11" deep


Revel weighs 86 lbs while Infinity weighs 56 lbs


Revel has crossover points @ 2.3 khz & 200 hz while infinity has 2.8 khz & 500 hz.


So revel is truly a significantly better speaker ... but how much more does it actually cost to build ? you need about 50% more wood, you need inductors and capacitors that are twice the size for lower crossover point. slightly tighter tolerances for components, slightly better drivers, slightly better finish. all in all it probably would cost ( if both speakers were being built in the same volume ) about 2X more to build the revel - but it sells for 5X more.


therefore it clearly looks as if a DIYer has a much better chance of beating the value offered by the high end speaker than by an entry-level speaker.


C336 is basically a de-tuned version of F56 kinda like it used to be for Camaro vs Corvette. Only Corvette never cost 5X Camaro. It cost 2X as much as it should.


The speaker manufacturer thinks like this: we have 2 types of customers:


1 - people who just want the cheapest speaker - infinity for them


2 - people who just want the best speaker - revel for them


so essentially the same speaker is built in el-cheapo version and in high-end version with 5X difference in price.


now if you were buying commercial speaker you would have to think long and hard - do i get the real deal for $5,000 or not quite the real deal for $1,000.


but if you're BUILDING the speaker - what is there really to think about ? just build the high end version !


a DIYer can't compete against the value of a mass produced product like C336 and win. but he CAN compete and win against the value of a relatively niche product like F52.


Manufacturers have design and marketing costs that are divided by the number of speakers sold. If the speaker is a niche product the cut for each unit may get high. This is the only opportunity for the DIYer to win because a DIYers doesn't have design or marketing costs.


DIYers should only compete against niche high-end products.


this is what DIYers must compete against:

http://www.revelspeakers.com/product...asp?product=27

http://www.diy-av.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&p=633

The margins on infinity speakers is small, most of their cost is purely in the cabinet itself. I think most people have figured out that with DIY that if you want a good cabinet you either buy it or put man hours into it, either way its pretty easy to realize that this is a cost that doesnt scale to the speaker, so might as well throw some nice revelators or seas millenium into the cabinets.
 

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Quote:
a DIYer can't compete against the value of a mass produced product like C336 and win.

I disagree. Why can't a DIY'r compete with a C336? I know I could build a pair of speakers to beat the C336 for less than $1200, probably around $500 or less.
 

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Vas, likes to be very definitive in his statements. It sparks disagreements and debate.



DIY is ANYTHING you want it to be!!
 

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That infinity cabinet is really easy to build with the right equipment.


With a CNC machine and a V groover you can literally build a cabinet with veneer already on it in in minutes. If you develop a good process you can do it with the finish already on the cabinet. To flat finish a sheet of material is very very fast and is a quality finish if done correctly. A cnc can v-groove also but a true v groover is more efficient in my opinion.


Here is a crude v-groover making a drawer box. You can cut in both directions cut the corners out and fold a completed box mitered on all corners in a couple minutes. There is tape on the back of the mitered corners to hold it together. The machine cuts the groove cutting very accurately 1/2 way through the veneer. Put glue in the groove and fold, the tape acts as a hinge. The tape also keeps the glue from shooting out. Screw the internal bracing on the front baffle with pocket screws. Use a PL type adhesive around the bracing to take up the designed in sloppiness for ease of fit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS9zvscZIi4


That revel cabinet does not appear to be made that way. It is much more labor intensive. The finish is totally different.


I can't speak for the component side but the cabinets are worlds apart.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 /forum/post/18297996


I disagree. Why can't a DIY'r compete with a C336? I know I could build a pair of speakers to beat the C336 for less than $1200, probably around $500 or less.

The natalie P's could probably be built for that and all you have to do from a labor point of view is route the holes.


Also you could build zilch's econo wave deluxes for a little more and they could probably run with the revelators, sure the trap cabs wouldn't look the best but when do you ever see sound?
 

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wait wait wait, did you seriously just compare the infinity CC drivers/tweeter to the Revel performa 2 Drivers/Tweeter???

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo /forum/post/18298503


wait wait wait, did you seriously just compare the infinity CC drivers/tweeter to the Revel performa 2 Drivers/Tweeter???


Yeah, I think he just did.


I'd agree with Vas, to a point. It's really depends on what you want to call 'high end'. For me, just about anything over $200 a speaker is pretty high end. And below that price point, I admit it's going to be very difficult to beat out similarly priced commercial speakers. Paradigm makes some very nice monitors for under $150 a speaker, for instance.


But, if you want to start talking above that price point, DIY wins in a big way. The value returned out of your investment begins to increase rather quickly; the budget econowaves at ~200/per will destry most any commercial offerings up to $500+/speaker. The Statements have gone toe to toe with $8000 speakers and come up on top, and cost well under $500/per. Yada yada yada.


So it really depends on what you classify as 'high end'. Or maybe Vas is alluding to that non-linear value curve I mentioned earlier. Since most DIY'ers will realize that design B will be waaaay better than design A at a small price difference, they are more willing to go that extra dollar and make those better systems. And those better systems, on the market, would be worth several times more.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkiller4299 /forum/post/18298659


Yeah, I think he just did.


I'd agree with Vas, to a point. It's really depends on what you want to call 'high end'....

two different subjects here. Comparing the inifinty CC drivers to the Revel Performa drivers is a pretty lame attempt at a strawman's argument, and a pretty funny one at that. Cabinet volume and size, etc, is only a small piece of the puzzle, and clearly shows he is trolling pretty hard in this thread.


The drivers, the XO points, and the alignment + measurements + XO tweaking (and repeat process 100 times), are the keys of creating a good speaker. To keep it simple, assuming both systems have been properly designed and the crossover properly implemented, a speaker (e.g. a WWMTM design for example) with some Hi-Vi drivers will never sniff or be ever mentioned in the same breath as a Speaker with some Accuton or ScanSpeak or Seas Excel drivers..... come now!


the second point, of what is considered "high end" is subjective, and pointless to argue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo /forum/post/18298503


wait wait wait, did you seriously just compare the infinity CC drivers/tweeter to the Revel performa 2 Drivers/Tweeter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vasyachkin /forum/post/18297651


you need about 50% more wood, you need inductors and capacitors that are twice the size for lower crossover point. slightly tighter tolerances for components, slightly better drivers, slightly better finish.

most of those driver "technologies" are gimmicks. they have invented a million cone materials for "consumers" ( read morons ) meanwhile the pro ( read not morons ) speakers are still paper. they give every speaker a "new" cone material all in hopes of confusing the customer.


also in prosound if you have a copper shorting ring or undercut pole piece or anything like that - it hardly translates to a higher price tag on the driver. the price is mostly for the maximum sustained SPL a driver is capable of, and to a lesser degree the brand.


switch over to audiophile world and suddenly somebody substitutes silver for the voice coil wire and you're expected to pay 5X more as if there was any effect on sound.


i am sure the drivers in Revel are better, but the degree to which they are better or more expensive to manufacture is the same as for the rest of the speaker ( cabinet, etc )


in case of these two speakers the crossover frequencies and cabinet depth are really the numbers that reveal how much the company cared, or didn't care, about the product because they clearly represent a point of cost/benefit trade-off.
 

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ROFL!!!


I will give you this vas, if nothing else, you certainly bring a good level of laughter with a sprinkle of idiocracy to the forum.
 

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Well I for one want to build Low End product, using bottom of the barrel drivers and components and shoddy construction materials, and sell them for ten times their worth.


Oh wait, I forgot.

Bose has been doing that for years.

Nevermind.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkiller4299 /forum/post/18298659


Yeah, I think he just did.


I'd agree with Vas, to a point. It's really depends on what you want to call 'high end'. For me, just about anything over $200 a speaker is pretty high end. And below that price point, I admit it's going to be very difficult to beat out similarly priced commercial speakers. Paradigm makes some very nice monitors for under $150 a speaker, for instance.


But, if you want to start talking above that price point, DIY wins in a big way. The value returned out of your investment begins to increase rather quickly; the budget econowaves at ~200/per will destry most any commercial offerings up to $500+/speaker. The Statements have gone toe to toe with $8000 speakers and come up on top, and cost well under $500/per. Yada yada yada.


So it really depends on what you classify as 'high end'. Or maybe Vas is alluding to that non-linear value curve I mentioned earlier. Since most DIY'ers will realize that design B will be waaaay better than design A at a small price difference, they are more willing to go that extra dollar and make those better systems. And those better systems, on the market, would be worth several times more.

WTF DID I BUILD MY ARRAY FOR?????? I was under the impression they cost $700+
. REGRET'S sinking in haha!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew /forum/post/18306019


WTF DID I BUILD MY ARRAY FOR?????? I was under the impression they cost $700+
. REGRET'S sinking in haha!

Statements will not have your dynamics, your vertical or horizontal dispertion..More or less if you dial your crossover in you will have speakers that compete with $$$$$ speaker too
Trust me Statements will not match your speakers in terms of dynamics.


btw, I just bought your drivers, I couldnt resist the price tag!!
 

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"a speaker (e.g. a WWMTM design for example) with some Hi-Vi drivers will never sniff or be ever mentioned in the same breath as a Speaker with some Accuton or ScanSpeak or Seas Excel drivers..... come now!"


linkwitz was surprised when he built his plutos using middle of the road drivers and could not hear any difference between them and the top of the line drivers in his orions. he discusses this in the audio recording of a presentation that he made in england. it came as a bit of a shock to him because he has pursued the lowest possible distortion drivers for most of his life. some folks have also been surprised at how nice a speaker such as the geddes summa sounds through the midrange, even though it uses a 15" p.a. driver, which isn't supposed to be ideal for midrange reproduction according to conventional beliefs. i believe the danley speakers also use midde of the road drivers, but get amazing reviews. it seems that once drivers are "good enough", performance depends much more on other aspects of the design and there are lots of drivers these days that are "good enough".


"DIYers should only compete against niche high-end products."


the nice thing about diy is that there is room for everybody. some folks will build products that are not economically sensible because they enjoy the process, while others will try to maximize bang for the buck. obviously, one can save more money in a product that is higher priced and has a larger margin.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/18306892


"a speaker (e.g. a WWMTM design for example) with some Hi-Vi drivers will never sniff or be ever mentioned in the same breath as a Speaker with some Accuton or ScanSpeak or Seas Excel drivers..... come now!"


linkwitz was surprised when he built his plutos using middle of the road drivers and could not hear any difference between them and the top of the line drivers in his orions. he discusses this in the audio recording of a presentation that he made in england. it came as a bit of a shock to him because he has pursued the lowest possible distortion drivers for most of his life. some folks have also been surprised at how nice a speaker such as the geddes summa sounds through the midrange, even though it uses a 15" p.a. driver, which isn't supposed to be ideal for midrange reproduction according to conventional beliefs. i believe the danley speakers also use midde of the road drivers, but get amazing reviews. it seems that once drivers are "good enough", performance depends much more on other aspects of the design and there are lots of drivers these days that are "good enough".


"DIYers should only compete against niche high-end products."


the nice thing about diy is that there is room for everybody. some folks will build products that are not economically sensible because they enjoy the process, while others will try to maximize bang for the buck. obviously, one can save more money in a product that is higher priced and has a larger margin.


From Dr Geddes


"Basically, to me, drivers are a commodity, I almost don't care whose they are as long as they meet some minimum requirements. But then the crossovers become the key thing as they are used to correct the drivers "issues" and they all have them, and in general they are all similar."
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/18306141


Statements will not have your dynamics, your vertical or horizontal dispertion..More or less if you dial your crossover in you will have speakers that compete with $$$$$ speaker too
Trust me Statements will not match your speakers in terms of dynamics.


btw, I just bought your drivers, I couldnt resist the price tag!!

OK... Now you really have no excuse.
Throw a 3 to 4 microfard cap on that CD and tell us what happens. We're working out the bugs on a prototype just for you.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monger /forum/post/18306933


From Dr Geddes


"Basically, to me, drivers are a commodity, I almost don't care whose they are as long as they meet some minimum requirements. But then the crossovers become the key thing as they are used to correct the drivers "issues" and they all have them, and in general they are all similar."

I think hes trying to say a lot of issues can be EQ'ed out - To me, the speaker starts with the driver and MDF is actually the real commodity. Crossover design and filters is relativity easy with today's active units. To suggest the drivers are simply a commodity is a great overestimation of the time, work and engineering that ( edit
)
"went" into them.
 
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