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While your comment is true, it tells me you don't upgrade other components either. Sound from a receiver though important, is just one major piece to my system. I want my cake and eat it too! I want a receiver that sounds good but gives me modern options like air play and calibration software. YMMV
 

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Get the cheapest 9.x capable receiver with pre-amp output and buy a 5 or 7 channel amp that can be carried from upgrade to upgrade. Amps almost always have HUGE toroidal transformers unless it is D-Sonic or Wyred. I've had girl friends that have weighed LESS than my Emotiva XPR-5. LOL
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rookerdo  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24177606


While your comment is true, it tells me you don't upgrade other components either. Sound from a receiver though important, is just one major piece to my system. I want my cake and eat it too! I want a receiver that sounds good but gives me modern options like air play and calibration software. YMMV

My mileage doesn't vary that much. My old receiver has calibration software. Air play is of no interest to me because I have no Apple products. The internet connectivity isn't important to me but I do have it with my blu ray player. Having the latest movie codecs is low on my priority list. The build quality of my receiver is obviously superior to the units being made now by the same manufacturer. I'm not against getting new gear. I'm just surprised that someone feels the need to change it on a schedule.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmax542  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much#post_24170747




I would love the build/sound quality that Cambridge owners boast about, but I also want features. I want at least 9.2 channels, smart phone apps, a high quality room correction system, and internet streaming.


My wife needs to think this thing is cool, in order to sell her on it.


I was almost sold on the Yammy, until Prietz0r started chiming in. As a big time Star Wars buff, the THX logo pulls on my heart. It's partially why I picked up my Onkyo TX-SR800. The Pioneer seems to have more power, but not everyone is sold on the class D amps. Some even say that you have to warm them up for an hour before they reach their true sound potential. If I decide to watch Fellowship of the Rings on a whim, I want the receiver to be at its best before they get to Rivendell. Also, the Pioneer doesn't have multi channel inputs. I'm not sure that this is really a problem, but If I ever brought my 25lb Denon DVD-3800 down to my dedicated theater, I wouldn't be able to test its SACD capabilities against my OPPO BDP-83 (not that I ever would). What the Pioneer does have going for it, is an $1800 price tag. The Yamaha is $2000, but I will gladly spend the extra $200, if the sound and build quality are superior. People often brag on the A3030's DSP. I didn't see anything negative or positive about the SC-77's DSP in the pioneer thread, so I am at a loss.


These decisions are overwhelming and stressful. I wish I had never gotten into this stupid hobby.

It's amazingly easy if you cut the crap out of your decision making process.


For example you say:


"I would love the build/sound quality that Cambridge owners boast about,"


You obviously get to have and execute based your preferences and your choices, but putting my curmudgeon's hat I'll interpret the above as: "I want bragging rights". To me, that's crap.


Fact is that Cambridge is just another branding of made-in-China AVRs that are a little behind in the useful features department. Audyssey 2EQ in a premium-priced AVR? LOL!


All Channels driven power is a red herring. It's based on sine wave bench tests into pure resistive loads that stress amplifiers well beyond anything that they will see in actual home use.
 

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All AVRs are more or less the same. The only difference between them is pre-amp features. I think you should focus on the room correction software as this will, by far, make the biggest difference in sound quality. I think audyssey xt32 is the best one out right now and if I were you, I would get the Denon 4520. The weight doesn't matter. It can deliver more power than you will need and has every available feature there is. Plus, it's not an Onkyo. It's a no brainer IMO.


I currently own receivers made by Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, Marantz and Sony. The Denon 4520 is the top dog in currently available receivers.
 

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Discussion Starter #46

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24178335



You obviously get to have and execute based your preferences and your choices, but putting my curmudgeon's hat I'll interpret the above as: "I want bragging rights". To me, that's crap.

You have misinterpreted my statement. What I meant by it was, I would love for my system to sound as good as the Cambridge owners say their systems sound. I am a recluse, and seldom let outsiders venture into my humble abode. I have fewer than 400 posts in this forum that I have been a member of over the past 10+ years, and the majority of them are either attempts to get questions answered, so that I can make educated decisions, or attempts to help other AVSers solve problems or make decisions. I have also had a few posts about issues I’ve had with various Epson projectors.


Bragging rights have never been a factor in my decision making process. I would hate for someone to misinterpret my bragging as an invitation into my theater. I don’t even necessarily like it when my wife and kids go in there. It’s mine. My own. My precious.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmax542  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24178420

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24178335



You obviously get to have and execute based your preferences and your choices, but putting my curmudgeon's hat I'll interpret the above as: "I want bragging rights". To me, that's crap.

You have misinterpreted my statement. What I meant by it was, I would love for my system to sound as good as the Cambridge owners say their systems sound.

Same difference. You seem to be more worried about what people say, than actual sound quality.


From an technical sound quality standpoint the Cambridge audio gear looks nice, has good heft, and sounds the same or worse than a mainstream AVR with a full set of modern features, some of which are apparently missing from Cambridge's product right now.


Look at post 45, this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24178405


That's the unvarnished truth that seems to have escaped your purview.
 

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Discussion Starter #48

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24178570



Same difference. You seem to be more worried about what people say, than actual sound quality.

I guess you are right. I am basing my decision off of the perceived sound/build quality of members of this forum, along with professional reviewers, because I don't have way to audition one on my own, and hear the actual sound quality (although your "bragging rights" comment is way off, but I'm once again just poking a troll). The Denon 4520 looks great, but it is about $500 more than I would like to spend.


Edit: I'm actually looking hard at a Yamaha RX-A2020 right now that I can get new in box for $1099 from a local authorized dealer. It's $900 less than the RX-A3030, but supposedly has inferior DACs and Yamaha's 2nd tier room correction (It's extremely hard to separate actual improvement from advertising gimmick when scouring these threads). The 2020 does seem to have better video scaling with HQV, but even that is up for debate.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrEastSide  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24171110


I'm currently running a Pioneer with MCACC, which yields some different results compared to YPAO and Audyssey which I've also had.

Can you elaborate on that ?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmax542  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24178643


I guess you are right. I am basing my decision off of the perceived sound/build quality of members of this forum, along with professional reviewers, because I don't have way to audition one on my own, and hear the actual sound quality (although your "bragging rights" comment is way off, but I'm once again just poking a troll). The Denon 4520 looks great, but it is about $500 more than I would like to spend.


Edit: I'm actually looking hard at a Yamaha RX-A2020 right now that I can get new in box for $1099 from a local authorized dealer. It's $900 less than the RX-A3030, but supposedly has inferior DACs and Yamaha's 2nd tier room correction (It's extremely hard to separate actual improvement from advertising gimmick when scouring these threads). The 2020 does seem to have better video scaling with HQV, but even that is up for debate.

The 2020 is a very good AVR. It has Yamaha's best version of YPAO. Is it as good as Audyssey? Who knows. There a varying opinions on that topic. I've used both Audyssey XT and that same version of YPAO in my A3000. Couldn't tell much of a difference to be honest. As for the DAC's between the 3030 and the 2020 you probably couldn't hear the difference. Go for that 2020 I feel that you will be very happy with your choice.
 

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Discussion Starter #51

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom52  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24179195


The 2020 is a very good AVR. It has Yamaha's best version of YPAO. Is it as good as Audyssey? Who knows. There a varying opinions on that topic. I've used both Audyssey XT and that same version of YPAO in my A3000. Couldn't tell much of a difference to be honest. As for the DAC's between the 3030 and the 2020 you probably couldn't hear the difference. Go for that 2020 I feel that you will be very happy with your choice.

From Yamaha’s website, the A3030 uses:

YPAO™ R.S.C. (Reflected Sound Control) Sound Optimization with Multi-point Measurement


And the aA2020 uses:

YPAO R.S.C. (Reflected Sound Control) Sound Optimization with Speaker Angle Measurement


Is there any real difference between the angle measurement and the multi point measurement? The A3030 comes with this sweet boomerang mic stand thingy, that the A2020 doesn’t get.




The A3030 has:

CINEMA DSP HD3 Expands the Sound Field Vertically for More Thrilling and Realistic Surround Sound


And the A2020 has:

HD Audio with CINEMA DSP 3D and Virtual Presence Speaker


Is there a difference between there Cinema DSP HD3 and Cinema DSP 3D, or are they just changing the names of things to justify the price difference?


Thanks for your advice. I'm trying to weigh the value of the A3030's 11.2 capabilities (not sure I would ever use it), the addition of the VPS Virtual Presence Speaker setting, which allows for a 5 or 7 channel system to "synthesize" virtual presence speakers in various ways, variable parameter video processing and a fully backlit remote.


Not sure why the A2020 doesn't have a backlit remote. Seems silly for a $1000+ receiver.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmax542  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24179389


From Yamaha’s website, the A3030 uses:

YPAO™ R.S.C. (Reflected Sound Control) Sound Optimization with Multi-point Measurement


And the aA2020 uses:

YPAO R.S.C. (Reflected Sound Control) Sound Optimization with Speaker Angle Measurement


Is there any real difference between the angle measurement and the multi point measurement? The A3030 comes with this sweet boomerang mic stand thingy, that the A2020 doesn’t get.




The A3030 has:

CINEMA DSP HD3 Expands the Sound Field Vertically for More Thrilling and Realistic Surround Sound


And the A2020 has:

HD Audio with CINEMA DSP 3D and Virtual Presence Speaker


Is there a difference between there Cinema DSP HD3 and Cinema DSP 3D, or are they just changing the names of things to justify the price difference?


Thanks for your advice. I'm trying to weigh the value of the A3030's 11.2 capabilities (not sure I would ever use it), the addition of the VPS Virtual Presence Speaker setting, which allows for a 5 or 7 channel system to "synthesize" virtual presence speakers in various ways, variable parameter video processing and a fully backlit remote.


Not sure why the A2020 doesn't have a backlit remote. Seems silly for a $1000+ receiver.


I feel the price difference between the 3030 and the 2020 is the 11.2 setup vs. 9.2 in the 2020. When I was setting up my A3000 I did use YPAO with and without their "boomerang" and really couldn't tell a difference. As for the presence speakers setting I believe that either of these models have the "virtual" setting. Why use a virtual setting when you can use the real thing by adding the speakers in the initial set up. I mean if you want a 9.2 or 11.2 configuration set it up as such. Yamaha has been using presence speaker set up longer than anyone else in the business. Below is a Audioholics review of the A2020 and the reviewer gives all the info(both positive and negative) for the 2020. You may have already read it or other reviews but I've never read a really negative review on any of the Yamaha Aventage AVR's. They are top notch AVR's IMO.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a2020-aventage
 

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The RX-A3030 and the RX-A2030's downloaded owners manual share the same pages...it indicates "the 3030 only" throughout the 175 pages. That is where you can see differences in the two models. I assume the 2020 is one model down from the 2030. Their model numbers are confusing.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24178268


My mileage doesn't vary that much. My old receiver has calibration software. Air play is of no interest to me because I have no Apple products. The internet connectivity isn't important to me but I do have it with my blu ray player. Having the latest movie codecs is low on my priority list. The build quality of my receiver is obviously superior to the units being made now by the same manufacturer. I'm not against getting new gear. I'm just surprised that someone feels the need to change it on a schedule.

You sound like my parents when I bought my first car "You don't need air-conditioning, just roll down the windows"..........
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darvis  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/0_60#post_24179082


Can you elaborate on that ?

MCACC only takes measurements from a single listening position where Audyssey takes measurements from several. I don't recall how many positions YPAO measures from. They all use slightly different audio tones for calibration as well. So using all three different methods in the same room and setup will end up adjusting your speakers a little differently. Whether noticeably different or not is, I suppose, dependent on the person listening.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmax542  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24179389


From Yamaha’s website, the A3030 uses:

YPAO™ R.S.C. (Reflected Sound Control) Sound Optimization with Multi-point Measurement


And the aA2020 uses:

YPAO R.S.C. (Reflected Sound Control) Sound Optimization with Speaker Angle Measurement


Is there any real difference between the angle measurement and the multi point measurement? The A3030 comes with this sweet boomerang mic stand thingy, that the A2020 doesn’t get.




The A3030 has:

CINEMA DSP HD3 Expands the Sound Field Vertically for More Thrilling and Realistic Surround Sound


And the A2020 has:

HD Audio with CINEMA DSP 3D and Virtual Presence Speaker


Is there a difference between there Cinema DSP HD3 and Cinema DSP 3D, or are they just changing the names of things to justify the price difference?


Thanks for your advice. I'm trying to weigh the value of the A3030's 11.2 capabilities (not sure I would ever use it), the addition of the VPS Virtual Presence Speaker setting, which allows for a 5 or 7 channel system to "synthesize" virtual presence speakers in various ways, variable parameter video processing and a fully backlit remote.


Not sure why the A2020 doesn't have a backlit remote. Seems silly for a $1000+ receiver.

The non backlitvremote is annoying when watching with the lights off. There are a ton of small buttons. An alternative could be the phone app, but if they're going through the trouble of a big and heavy remote make the buttons light up. That's my only complaint. I love the receiver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Espo77  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24179761


The RX-A3030 and the RX-A2030's downloaded owners manual share the same pages...it indicates "the 3030 only" throughout the 175 pages. That is where you can see differences in the two models. I assume the 2020 is one model down from the 2030. Their model numbers are confusing.

The 2020 is the same model as the 2030, just a year older.
 

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Usually people fell more strongly about that
and since Audyssey doesn't work for me I'm interested in experiences comparing the three.


Maybe your room has not too much problems to begin with ?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darvis  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24183227


Usually people fell more strongly about that
and since Audyssey doesn't work for me I'm interested in experiences comparing the three.


Maybe your room has not too much problems to begin with ?

Usually when generally reliable tools such as Audyssey "don't work" the hidden agenda is a room with really strange acoustics. Either that or a system that is already brilliantly well-integrated to start with, but that is pretty rare except with professionally-designed rooms.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmax542  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24178643


The Denon 4520 looks great, but it is about $500 more than I would like to spend.

Many places sell the 4520 for under 2K.
 

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Discussion Starter #60

Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn  /t/1509749/why-do-onkyos-and-nads-weigh-so-much/30#post_24183473


Many places sell the 4520 for under 2K.

If you could pm me, with anauthorized dealer willing to do this, i would appreciate it.


Thanks
 
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