[JazzGuyy]

I am in the market for new speakers. I am willing to spend up to $10K for a full set of fronts, center and two rears. I have been doing considerable research (on this site among other places) and the list is still rather large. I am at the stage where it is time to start some listening. I expect it to take several months to get down to two or three finalists.


So today I called a local high end dealer who I have never done business with but who came recommended. I spent about twenty minutes on the phone with him. At the end of that call I was so angry I could have hit something. This dealer spent most of the time telling me how bad various speakers I expressed interest in were, often calling them disparaging names and telling me how everyone in the industry knows what dogs they are. These were brands like Thiel, B&W, Revel, Dynaudio and others. None of which he, of course, carried but he either used to and had dropped them because they were junk or had evaluated and decided were junk.


He next made it subtlely (but clearly) obvious that he had no interest in me coming to his (appointment only) shop (I believe a house) unless I was ready to buy. At no time did he attempt to praise the lines he carried or tell me why I should buy from him. He also made no attempt to ascertain my tastes in music, sound, etc. even though I volunteered that I had always leaned toward the "British monitor sound".


At the end of the conversation I felt I was being treated like an idiot and that unless I was immediately prepared to spend $50 to a $100K at his place that I was dirt.


To my way of thinking this is not how one develops customer relationships. Have others of you been treated like this? I think I am beginning to understand why the internet dealers like ACI and Onix are so well liked here since they seem to be genuinely helpful and interested in working with their customers. By the way this dealer disparaged all of the on-line dealers by saying that "there's a good reason they don't have dealers". I suspect he has no conception of other business models and that many small to medium size manufacturers can make a better profit by cutting out the middle man (if they have a good product to sell).


I will not mention this dealer's name, by the way. This is probably the kind of guy who would sue for libel but I can pretty much guarantee he'll never see any of my money.

 

[Kpt_Krunch]

Quote:

Originally posted by JazzGuyy I am in the market for new speakers. I am willing to spend up to $10K for a full set of fronts, center and two rears.

Well, I guess you and your paltry 10 grand will have to shop elsewhere!


My only experience (so far) at a high end dealer is where I bought my Paradigm PW-2200 sub. I first audtioned the sub mid - November. I showed up with no appointment. The salesman graciously explained the sub to me, compared it with others but agreed with me based on my size of room (about 500 sq. feet) that the PW would be more than enough.


After tooling around town demoing other subs, I came back to this place, dealt with the same guy who took the time to let me demo one more time. Left me alone in the room with the remote and various Cd's, and gratiously took my order after a/b with a few other subs.


When the sub came (it was delayed a week) he threw in a sub cable at no charge for the delay, without a comment from me (about a $70 cdn. cable)!


Considering it was xmas time and my sub (just over $900 cdn - which is peanuts to the other sales he was doing) I was very satisfied with the purchase. Not once did he make me feel unwanted or unworthy - he listened to my likes and dislikes. He even offered if I could not get the sub to work properly he or someone else would come over to help with placement and setup.



Quote:

Originally posted by JazzGuyy I think I am beginning to understand why the internet dealers like ACI and Onix are so well liked here since they seem to be genuinely helpful and interested in working with their customers. By the way this dealer disparaged all of the on-line dealers by saying that "there's a good reason they don't have dealers".

Yeah - the fact that we are in the 21st Century and reputable speaker manufacturers have discovered they can get a bigger profit by selling direct and the consumer can get a better speaker for the money - a win/win for both!


I personally perfer the ability to audition in store and in home, with an option of returning if not liked (or damaged internally/externally) without incurring shipping charges.


It's too bad you had that experience - I would move on as there are a lot of high end audio/visual stores that will recogonize you as a customer for now and the future and treat you as such. At least you found out the easy way - you could have driven down there and had the door slammed in your face!

 

[JazzGuyy]

You Canadians seem to be lucky. My experience on several visits to Canada is that Canadians as a whole are more civil than we Yanks. Part of my problem is that I live in a smaller city so there are limited dealers available here. I suspect I will end up having to do a lot of driving to other areas before my speaker selection efforts are over. I refuse to buy any speakers that I cannot audition and that I can't trade in within 30 days. When you are spending fairly substantial amounts of money, I believe you are entitled to a higher level of service and consideration. Clearly this local dealer doesn't agree.

 

[Larry Fine]

Jazz, don't be bitter; the guy did you a favor. Just think of it as a weeding-out of crappy dealers. By the way, are you far from Richmond? Did the guy's last name start with "L"?

 

[colinsm]

Quote:

Originally posted by JazzGuyy You Canadians seem to be lucky. My experience on several visits to Canada is that Canadians as a whole are more civil than we Yanks.

Isn't Virginia south of the Mason-Dixon Line? Do you still consider yourselves yanks down that far?

 

[Larry Fine]

Quote:

Originally posted by colinsm Do you still consider yourselves yanks down that far?

Hell, no! We're f***in' Rebels!!!
http://fineelectricco.com/jack.gif

 

[Woochifer]

Unfortunately, this is pretty common in the high end audio world. Snobbery runs rampant, and a lot of the guys I've encountered in high end stores don't have the faintest bit of business sense whatsoever. To them, the high end hobby is almost like a religion or ideological crusade where the object is not to meet the demands of customers, but to convert and mold the customer into their way of thinking. It goes beyond just philosophy of sound, it also comes down to how someone intends to use the system, and what they plan to attach to those systems.


Your questions about speaker brands might seem quaint to the guy that you talked to. I'm pretty sure that he believes what he's telling you, but it also sounds like he does not have your best interests in mind. With some guys I've encountered in high end audio, they won't even talk to you unless you share their obsession with classical music or female vocals, analog, and/or tube equipment. It's no coincidence that most of them are no longer in business. This guy might be cut from that same cloth, although I will say that you might have made the first mistake by not letting him tell you what speakers he carried before telling him what brands you were interested in. There were a couple of these appointment only stores close to where I live, and they tend to carry the more esoteric brands (some of which can sound quite incredible for the price). B&W, Revel, and Dynaudio are not small companies, and as such, they tend to go with dealers with actual retail stores (except for their home installation lines).

 

[jheoaustin]

BTW, What do you mean by "British monitor"? Does it mean speakers like ones from ATC, B&W, Quad, PMC, BBC gangs(KEF/Harbeth/Spendor, etc.)?


I am betting my money on some ATC-based speakers, and will post my result probably in July. I wonder if you have similar taste to mine.

 

[BigK35]

It seems costemer service is very important for you. Then I would definatly segest SVS for a sub. Their R&D leader Tom V. has had many E-mail conversations with me to see if I can save a $100 by getting a passive sub over a powered one. Now that is dedication, in the end I decided on a powered sub.


-BigK35-

 

[DMF]

The South shall rise again!


Yyeee Hhaaah !

 

[CruelInventions]

Have you considered putting your negative feelings about your experience in a letter to this guy? Might give you some satisfaction and closure (sorry for the touchy-feely word )

 

[F355]

Quote:

Originally posted by CruelInventions Have you considered putting your negative feelings about your experience in a letter to this guy? Might give you some satisfaction and closure (sorry for the touchy-feely word )

naah dont give a FUrCK.


there's a saying in hindi, which means that a dog's tail will always be curved [actually crooked if you translate directly]


btw an ACI panorama + veritas + sapphire + SVS CS ultra/ pb2 plus + pioneer 59Txi+ 47 Ai is what i can suggest to you.

of course the search function gives you the best results.

all the best,

 

[thebland]

Jzz,



I think you are taking this too far....


You spoke to one guy working out of his house that has some pretty obvious favorites to sell (his brands).


THere are other dealers. Check around. Don't be seduced by friendly e-mails (and smiley emoticons in corresponding e-mails ) with an on-line company if you are seriously looking to spend significant coin. $10K surround systems are not in your typical on-line dealer's catalog...


Check the good brands (Revel, B&W, Linn, Vandersteen, ProAc, etc.). Remember long after the service, you have to live with the sound. I suppose you would be able to put up with some cynicism if you are getting the brand you want.


Yes, on-line dealers can provide a positive experience but don't forget that the tried and true brands are typically found at high end dealers (and you don't have to receive them in the mail or travel to a strangers house to try them out).

 

[Y2kGrizz]

Quote:

Originally posted by thebland Yes, on-line dealers can provide a positive experience but don't forget that the tried and true brands are typically found at high end dealers

Why do you think that is? It's because internet speaker mfg's are comparatively new. Give them some time. Either the so called "high end" stores will need to become more competitive, get better customer service, or just simply disappear. I own Onix Rockets and they are a fantastik speaker. Great bang for the buck. Are they for everybody? No. Are they the absolute best? Of course not. But they definately warrant a look. I would say the same for Axiom, ACI, etc. As far as going to a strangers house... Big deal. You'll most likely meet some very nice people and probably get a better listen than you would in a store room environment. I've met other Onix owners at a "strangers" house. A good time was had by all

It was fun to meet some of the people who hang out on the forums and share the same interests.


Oh well. Just my 2 cents

 

[JazzGuyy]

to Larry Fine:


I don't remember what his last name began with. If you send me a PM and tell me what dealer you have in mind I might confirm it.


to colinsm:


I think to Canadians we're all Yanks (or so I've been told) and besides I'm not from Virginia originally.


to Woochifer:


He's the one who asked me to name brands I was interested in. Trying to get him to tell me what he carried was like pulling teeth.


to jheoaustin:


By British monitors I mean those speakers that were originally designed to meet BBC monitoring requirements. This included things like Harbeth/Spendor, early Missions, and others. Quad and B&W never made these kinds of speakers specifically but the BBC standard influenced (and I believe continues to influence) the design of every British cone/dome driver speaker. Quad electrostatics were always designed to different principles. Before the Canadians did all there measurements the BBC specs were the closest thing to an objective standard for speaker sound, though not to everyone's taste.


to BigK35:


I already have a sub I am more than happy with: an M&K MX200.


to DMF:


I believe the South has risen and fallen a couple of times.


to CruelInventions:


I have considered a letter but I'm not sure it would have any affect. People of this type are oblivious, in my experience.


to F355:


The ACIs are very much on my have to hear list, especially there top two models.


to thebland:


This guy claims to have been in business for 30 years, though I don't know how. He carries Vandersteens and they are on my (still) medium-size list so I will have to find a dealer elsewhere (probably Washington D.C.) to hear them. There is a dealer there, by the way, with exactly the same attitude. I am beginning to wonder if high-end customers want to be abused and berated.


to Y2kGrizz:


Internet selling may be fairly new but there have been a number of hi-fi dealers who have done direct selling (by old-fashioned mail) for many years. My rear-channel amp comes from Audio by Van Alstine, a small company in Minnesota, that has been modifying and building electronics for at least 25 years and has a great and deserved reputation for quality products and service. The Onix Reference 2 and 3 are also on my list, but not the Rockets. I am at an age and state where I am looking for what will most probably be the last speakers I ever buy. I want the best I can afford. I do not buy the "product of the month". The speakers I have now are nearly 25 years old but still exceed the performance of 90% of what I hear. Speakers are probably the hardest thing of all to buy because none are perfect (or even close). Plus I look for value for the dollar.

 

[danbry39]

JazzGuyy,


I so hear what you're saying. I too have, for the most part, tired of the shops in my area........because of their condescending attitude, which I don't get except at the medium to high end audio shops. Bland is right that there are other audio dealers which you can probably go to. However, some of the online dealers have been around over a quarter of a century and still receive rave reviews from those who have purchased their products.


When I went searching for new speakers, I went to all the shops I could. After an exhaustive period of researching, I decided to order some ACI's, a brand that had been unknown to me up to the point I starting stumbling on quite a few posts lauding their performance. I figured I'd probably return them, despite the fact that what I was reading gave indication to me that their sonic footprint would be right up my alley.


When I received them, I was immediately taken by their sound. It was what I was looking for and, to this day, they are like a breath of fresh air every time I listen to them. I feel that buyers of brands such as Ascend, Axiom, GR-Research, Onix, etc. must experience a similar reaction judging by their posts. When I listen to other speakers, usually costing much more, I'm all the more assured that my decision was correct - for my ears and to my taste.


As far as the issue of what happens if there is a problem, can you imagine how that guy would treat you in that event...after he had your money. Me thinks he'd slam the door in your face or the phone in your ear. I recommended ELT's to a friend and there was a problem with the sub. Did ACI ask a lot of questions or try to place the blame on him when he asked if he could exchange them? No, they said they'd have a new sub mailed out that day. They didn't even wait until they had received his malfunctioning one in return. And, they assumed shipping costs for both the return and the new sub.


From all I've read about brands such as Rocket and SVS, this same level of extraordinary customer service would ensue if you had a problem with their products as well. They have to. These companies live on word of mouth, so product and service better be a step above or else they wouldn't last very long.


Not trying to dissuade you from making a local purchase, just trying to say that quite a few of us have been delighted with the quality of product and service we received from our friendly direct-to-consumer companies.

 

[minhi]

If JMlabs is on your list, the dealer up here in NoVA treated my right, he evens sells one speaker line that he doesn't like that much 'sonically' but he understands some people prefer that kind of speaker. Let me know if you need the dealer info.

 

[thomaspf]

If you like the "British monitor sound", some would call it neutral, don't miss listening to Harbeth.


You might be able to fit a pair of Monitor 40s and 3 Monitor 30s into that budget and it should give you a system that is likely to be better than anything you could have bought by that dealer for a multiple.


The clarity and rendering of voices are very intriguing.


Cheers


Thomas

 

[Joey P]

Quote:

Originally posted by CruelInventions Have you considered putting your negative feelings about your experience in a letter to this guy? Might give you some satisfaction and closure (sorry for the touchy-feely word )

If you do that, be sure to include a copy of the receipt for your purchase with a note saying something to the extent of (P.S. Here's how much money you lost for being a jerk).


When I was shopping for a plasma TV, I went into a demo room at a store, sat on a couch and watched 20 minutes of Monsters Inc without anyone saying anything to me. What's worse is one of the salesmen walked in several times while on the phone and never even acknowleded me (mind you, I was sitting in front of a $3000 (not plasma) TV). All he had to do was say "Can I help you?" and I would've (at the time) pointed to it and said "Here's my credit card, I want that one." Monsters Inc made the TV look incredible. Anyways, I finally walked over to another salesman and asked if someone could help me with the TV's, he told me that the gentleman over there could (pointing at the person on the phone), I explained that he's been on the phone for sometime now. The other guy told me that he would be right in and signaled to the guy on the phone that we needed help. We walked back into the room, the guy walked in and said the most unbeliveable thing "I'll be right with you, I just need to make one more phone call" . I stood up, grabbed my GF's hand, and said told her we're leaving. They guy chased behind me "Can I help you?" "Nevermind" I said. "Are you sure, is there something I can help you with?" (This was in a pleading tone of voice). I just said "No, no, no, you're much to busy right now I'm going to go over to [MAJOR competitor right down the block]" He seemed very angry with me. But, hey, I gave him 20 mins to come and help me and he blatenly ingnored me. I was DYING to go back in later that day and show him a receipt for $8000 I had just spent about 1/2 mile away. Sometimes I still feel like going in. He really pissed me off that day.

 

[thebland]

Joey,


Funny you mention this....


I am just the opposite..I really am turned off when a salesperson asks me if he can help.


I mean when I go into the store, I know what I want and if I want to demo (as you and your girlfriend were doing), I don't want some cheesy salesguy in a polyester shirt reciting the attributes about the set I am watching and already know I am going to buy.


.....$8,000 or not, keep far away from me...


Apparently you wanted validation for such a large purchase...He realized most don't want such condescending treatment.


I would have not only bought from your 'on the phone salesguy'....I might have tipped him for not bothering me with his bullcrap about he set I already knew I wanted to buy.. I can't stand anyone blowing smoke up my ass or asking me if I need help...If I needed help, I'd be a blind man asking about the quality of the television picture..


I think you are being too hard on him (or you like smoke being blown up your ass).