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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been looking at different displays in all the local stores and the PQ on the Pioneer Elite is far better than anything else out there on the HD sources that they use in the store.


Of course, the Pioneer Elite is $1000 to $2000 more than anything else in the same screen size. My wideband sources will be Dish Network HD and a Kenwood 5900M (when that comes out). Otherwise will be watching Dish. Will the HD sources I'm using make other sets look nearly as good, or will the Pioneer always be that much better? Maybe it won't matter as much after professional callibration?


Thanks!
 

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Being an Elite disciple I will of course tell you that the Elite's are by far the best picture, and will continue to be in the future. This was true even with the NTSC Elites a few years back. It is a stunning picture that definitely gets noticed.


On the other hand I also think that other manufacturers are coming up to speed with at least the current generation of Elites. Mits and Toshiba have very fine pictures, and are a bit more affordable. A couple of thousand dollars even makes me pause and wonder if I should...NO!


If you are interested in the Elite the 2002 models will be out in October, according to a thread here and confirmed by my local dealer. That means a couple of things:


1) Elites will again leap-frog in quality. The new models contain an improved line double plus other stuff. The only off-point is that they will continue to have 7" CRTs; although they seem to do a lot with them :).


2) Current model Elites will be down-priced in the very near future. You might be able to pick up one for the same lower price range you are seeing on other manufacturer's models;


3) The 2002 Pioneer RPTVs (non-Elite) are supposed to come out with the same quality level as the current Elites, and perhaps a bit better. This would be another lower-price option than taking the jump to the latest-and-greatest Elite.


My personal philosophy on electronics and computers is to try to get as state-of-the-art equipment as possible. Even then what you buy will be out of date within a year or so, but not painfully so....
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
BTDT - thanks for the info. I will probably wait until October to see the new models.


If I understand this right, the line doubler will make an impact on NTSC sources like regular Dish programming. But the LD is disengaged when using wideband sources like progressive-scan DVD and HDTV, right? So the LD will make my regular TV look better, but HDTV and DVD won't benefit?


If the LD is the difference, would I be better off to get an external LD with one of the other sets?


I notice other details from the product literature (screen lenticular (sp?), etc.) that Pioneer is claiming makes a difference. Does it? or is the LD the only component in this unit that makes it so much better than the rest?
 

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BUT.... When is enough is enough? Last August I compared a Elite to a Samsung HCJ655W. I walked out with the Samsung and to this day, still believe that it is the best. Why? Price wasn't the issue as they were pretty close (8500-9000) and style didn't matter either. I just felt, and still feel, that it has a better image quality in all lighting conditions at any of the NTSC or HDTV modes.


A friend of mine just got an Elite and after the placement in his theater room, I cannot see the difference.


I say this, if it looks good to you, then buy it. I have nothing against Pioneer and believe it too is a great set.
 

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I totally agree that picture, like sound, can be a thing of taste. At present a number of sets have come up to par with the Elites, or at least close enough for many purposes.


weldon: Yes, the line doubler only comes into play if there are in fact lines that need to be doubled. Many argue that a good line doubler replaces the need for a progressive-scan DVD player. Since I don't have one, I am not sure. Since most of the programming available to day is not HDTV, a line doubler is an important thing to have for now.


I have read on this forum that the internal Elite line doublers are as good as some very expensive external doublers, and that the 2002 models will have an even better double. If the alternative is a cheaper RPTV with an expensive external double maybe the Elites are a bargain???


I have also read that line doublers may actually be a curse it you are watching a bad-quality NTSC signal, since the doubling will just amplify the nastiness. Hmm.


Finally, yes I think the fine-pitch lenticular screen does make a difference (this will be even finer in the 2002s). Combined with other things like the comb filters this gives the very-precise, sharp picture that you expect out of an Elite. Even on my NTSC-only 1009W you have trouble seeing the scan lines because the set does such a good job of smoothing things out. The filters helping to make this possible are typically configurable to taste as well. Pioneer does a very good job on these internals.


Net net: If looking at the Elites makes you happier than the other offerings then you should wait until October and get really happy. If you feel about the same looking at some of the other 2002 models that are popping up, and they are priced more within your expectations, then feel free to jump in there.
 

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I have a 510HD. The picture is good ... but the overscan is

terrible. I think this is my first and last RPTV. I will get front projection

next time... More flexibility and no overscan issues!
 

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Are you sure you were looking at HD on all sets? The Pioneer Elites have the best internal line doublers, and that's generally why Pioneer Elites look the best, but HDTV bypasses the internal line doubler. For HDTV, I would be very surprised if the Pioneer Elites' picture looked superior relative to the Philips 64PH9905.


Regarding overscan, you can adjust this in the service mode. However, you will likely need 5-8% overscan on each side, since the convergence at the edges gets funky on RPTV's.



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Abdul
Philips 60PP9601, join the Philips_HDTV discussion group

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The store was running an HBO demo loop that showed a boxing match and the picture was definitely better to my eye. The Sony looked a bit soft and the Mits just didn't jump out at me like the Pioneer did. I didn't have a chance to see the Philips side-by-side with the Pioneer.


On another day they were playing Toy Story 2 from DVD (don't know the player) and the Pioneer again had a much better picture than the Sony XBR's and Mitsubishi Diamond's. I've seen Toshiba's, Samsung's, and RCA's in other stores but didn't think they compared to my memory of the Pioneer either.
 

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Hi Weldon,


I think some of the above minimizes the importance of the line doubler. Until the world is HDTV http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif you will want to "improve" the NTSC pix as much as possible. From my research (and ownership) the Elite (I have the 510 - basement door size limitations!) has the best line doubler in the industry.


Good luck in your search.


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Have a Great HDTV Day,


Fred


[This message has been edited by albertso (edited 07-06-2001).]
 

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One of the reasons they seem to look better out of the box is that they tend to have better contrast. The inside is painted a nice black, whereas some of them such as the Toshibas are kind of dark gray, which helps keep the light level inside the screen cavity darker. You can get pretty much the same effect on other sets by lining them with velvet, which is definitely cheaper than the couple thousand dollars difference.



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Dean Roddey

The Charmed Quark Controller
[email protected]
www.charmedquark.com


If it don't have a control port, don't buy it!
 

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If the Pioneer Elite is so great, why does it only have 1080 screen resolution and the Toshiba 65H80 has 1600 screen resolution? Not to mention the Elite has 10 watt internal speakers, while the Toshiba has 28 watt internal speakers.

I go by specs, and the specs tell me the Toshiba is better.





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My current entertainment setup:

Panasonic 27" TV, Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Player (connected via S-Video), Aiwa Dolby Pro Logic Mini-Surround System, Super NES, Nintendo 64, Sega Dreamcast, Sony PlayStation 2...(and more to come!)
 

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Aren't all of these in-store comparisons inherently flawed because the sets are not usually properly calibrated or may have different default settings?
 

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Tooniverse, you are confusing vertical resolution with horizontal resolution, and you are confusing manufacturer claims based on nonstandardized metrics with the truth. Almost all these sets have 1080 lines of vertical resolution (exception: many Hitachi sets have ~810 lines of vertical resolution.)

LB's independent study paints a different picture. According to figures LB gave later, given 1920x1080i input, converged/calibrated sets, and the same uniform testing metric from that thread, the Pioneer Elite was measured as doing 1246 lines of horizontal resolution (same as cheaper Pioneers), whereas the Toshiba 56H80 was clocked at a mere 875 lines of horizontal resolution, in sharp contrast with Toshiba's claim of 1600. I do not believe Toshiba, as I have looked at a Sencore HD feed on a Philips 7" gun set next to a Toshiba 56H80, both converged by me, and I could see more detail in the Philips set's HD picture.



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Abdul
Philips 60PP9601, join the Philips_HDTV discussion group

DirecTV + Sony SVR-2000 TiVo upgraded to 128 hours basic quality

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Kenwood VR-407 receiver & subwoofer

nOrh 4.0 marble center speaker
s>


[This message has been edited by Abdul Jalib (edited 07-08-2001).]
 

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Tooniverse,

CRT-type HDTV sets such as the Pioneer can create a blank raster (no image), consisting of two interlaced sets of 540 scan lines, each lasting 1/60 sec (1080 lines total). These are constant, based on the set's electronics. Video information 'painted' by these scan lines, though, is less than 1080 measured vertically. The vertical resolution, determined with a test pattern, is the number of alternating black and white horizontal lines visible from the top of the screen to the bottom. ATSC experts, for example, measured 800 lines for a stationary test pattern, only 400 lines for a moving pattern for 1080i (interlaced) HDTV. Horizontal resolution is the number of alternating black and white vertical lines visible within a screen width equal to the screen height. (Multiply this number by 1.33 for 4:3 sets and 1.78 for 16:9-screen sets, or 16:9 HDTV presented on 4:3 sets, for full-width resolution.) I summarized some resolution test data published by an ATSC experts committee in my 7/3 post here . -- John


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STOP DVI/HDCP AND DFAST




[This message has been edited by John Mason (edited 07-10-2001).]
 

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I still don't think these so-called extra lines of horizontal resolution justify paying an extra 3-4 thousand dollars more when the picture would look roughly the same when properly calibrated (i.e. ISF-certified). I could spend that extra 3 grand on a Denon AVR-5800 or something more tangible.



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My current entertainment setup:

Panasonic 27" TV, Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Player (connected via S-Video), Aiwa Dolby Pro Logic Mini-Surround System, Super NES, Nintendo 64, Sega Dreamcast, Sony PlayStation 2...(and more to come!)
 

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Guess that depends on how important it is to you to display most (or all) of what's being broadcast in HDTV. Sorry, but ISF tweaking won't make up for fundamental differences in set design. Such adjustments can ensure projectors have the right gray scale balance, are converged and focused properly--among other things. But if the video electronics don't have adequate bandwidth, and the tubes (etc.) and optics can't display full-resolution HDTV, then no amount of conventional tweaking can help. What is actually full-resolution HDTV, by the way, isn't necessarily 1920 X 1080 by the time it's processed and displayed, and is the topic of some of the threads cited here. -- John


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STOP DVI/HDCP AND DFAST




[This message has been edited by John Mason (edited 07-08-2001).]
 

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When are the new Pioneer Elites coming out?

I'll be interested to see how they compare to the new Toshiba 65HX81 coming out this October.

If I can be sufficiently convinced Elite is worth the premium, I'll give it some thought.

Right now, the only thing noticably better is the "grand piano" black-laquer finish.




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My current entertainment setup:

Panasonic 27" TV, Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Player (connected via S-Video), Aiwa Dolby Pro Logic Mini-Surround System, Super NES, Nintendo 64, Sega Dreamcast, Sony PlayStation 2...(and more to come!)
 

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Just curious but I've never seen a review of the Elite line of RPTV's from the Secrets of Home Theater web page. How does the famed de-interlacer compare with an iScan? The Progressive Shootout page has a terrible review on Pioneer's Elite Progressive DVD player, the DV-37. Is this the same de-interlacer built into the Elite RPTV's?


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STOP DFAST NOW!!!
 

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Abdul,


You keep quoting that "study", but there is no study nor any reason to believe the purported results. It is nothing more than third party hearsay. LB didn't study anything - he is just quoting "anonymous" sources who claim they did measurments in a retail store. A RETAIL STORE! We all know how horribly out of calibration sets in a retail store are. You know they didn't open up the sets and focus them so whatever results they claim to have gotten are completely invalid.


I have reason to believe that the techs were affiliated in some way with Philips which might explain why the Phillips sets measured so well. I have seen many Philips sets in stores that are just as horribly out of focus as other RPTVs. You could go into five different retail stores and measure resolution and get five different winners.


I know you like your Philips set, and that's great, but if you are going to claim to have resolution figures, let's have real figures from a reputable, known source gathered under controlled conditions - not some nonsense from anonymous sources quoted in that old thread.
 

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Greetings


I think that is pretty much it. Every time I hear that 875 number bandied about for the Toshiba, I cringe.


Why? Because my HD test equipment tells me a different tale altogether. If the 875 number is accurate, then the 2 pixel multiburst pattern should not be visible from the generator. But of course it is ... and very much so. Right off, this says that the Toshiba does at least 960 lines ... or more.


Regards


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Michael @ The Laser Video Experience
 
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