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Why is it only in high end audio?

5885 Views 82 Replies 31 Participants Last post by kgveteran, Feb 24, 2010

Glimmie

Discussion Starter · Feb 18, 2010

I mean we read all these fancy though uncertified claims on wire metalurgy in brochures from high end audio cable manufactures. Some even make such claims as to being able to control electron flow through stranded wire. IOW, make the signals stay on their own strand - what ever that means. I never learned about that in a formal EE program. But then I graduated in 1982 so I'm hopelessly out of date. Anyway, why are these incredible technology breakthorughs only applicable to speaker wires, audio cables and power cords?

Let's take power cords for example. Why isn't this technology being applied to power grid distribution. How about transformer and motor design. If the claims of these power cord companies were viable don't you think GE, Siemens, and other billion dollar electrical companies would be all over it? All we hear about these days is green, green, green with huge tax incentives to develope more efficient technology. But yet some tiny audiophile company has a technology to reduce loses in a power cord and nobody other than the high end audio market is interested?

Ok let's look at interconnects. We have plenty of outlandish claims by the audiophile interconnect companies over their superior cables but yet none of these advancements have any use in the trillion dollar computer networking industry? Do any audiophiles have any idea of how much faster network communications would be if we could reduce the error correction overhead. I mean if thse cable advancements were as good as they say the needed error margine would be miniscule.

How about computer design. If continous cast copper is so good for signal transmission why aren't PC boards made with it?

Seems funny at least to me that these ground breaking achivements in electrical transmission over copper wire is only taking place in tiny garage level high end audio businesses with a equally tiny sales market.

Oh wait, I forgot. We don't listen to electrical energy, we listen to music and that's what flows over the wires!

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1 - 20 of 83 Posts

Dynamic1

· #2 · Feb 18, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie /forum/post/18158476

I mean we read all these fancy though uncertifed claims on wire metalurgy in brochures from high end audio cable manufactures. Some even make such claims as to being able to control electron flow through stranded wire. IOW, make the signals stay on their own strand - what ever that means. I never learned that in a formal EE program. Anyway, why are these incredible technology breakthorughs only applicable to speaker wires, audio cables and power cords?

Let's take power cords for example. Why isn't this technology being applied to power grid distribution. How about transformer and motor design. If the claims of these power cord companies were viable don't you think GE, Siemens, and other billion dollar electrical companies would be all over it? All we hear about these days is green, green, green. But yet some tiny audiophile company has a technology to reduce loses in a power cord and nobody other than the high end audio market is interested?

Ok let's look at interconnects. We have plenty of outlandish claims by the audiophile interconnect companies over their superior cables but yet none of these advancements have any use in the trillion dollar computer networking industry? Do any audiophiles have any idea of how much faster network communications would be if we could reduce the error correction overhead. I mean if thse cable advancements were as good as they say the needed error margine would be miniscule.

How about computer design. If continous cast copper is so good for signal transmission why aren't PC boards made with it?

Seems funny at least to me that these ground breaking achivements in electrical transmission over copper wire is only taking place in tiny garage level businesses with a equally tiny sales market.

Oh wait, I forgot. We don't listen to electrical energy, we listen to music and that's what flows over the wires!

Simply beacuse its garbage. Cisco would have been all over it years ago and thats just one of many. These days does not matter if you buy a $300 cisco cable or a knock off even for use with their High End Routers 100K and up. And the ECC rate or error correction code or packets lost stays the same with either cable. Exact same percentages.

kagolu

· #3 · Feb 18, 2010

I agree it is absolute BS. In my industry(industrial motive power) conductors and connectors are actually getting smaller. Not because advances in metallurgy or conductivity just because they can get away with.

keilwerth

· #4 · Feb 18, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie /forum/post/18158476

I mean we read all these fancy though uncertified claims on wire metalurgy in brochures from high end audio cable manufactures. Some even make such claims as to being able to control electron flow through stranded wire. IOW, make the signals stay on their own strand - what ever that means. I never learned about that in a formal EE program. But then I graduated in 1982 so I'm hopelessly out of date. Anyway, why are these incredible technology breakthorughs only applicable to speaker wires, audio cables and power cords?

Let's take power cords for example. Why isn't this technology being applied to power grid distribution. How about transformer and motor design. If the claims of these power cord companies were viable don't you think GE, Siemens, and other billion dollar electrical companies would be all over it? All we hear about these days is green, green, green with huge tax incentives to develope more efficient technology. But yet some tiny audiophile company has a technology to reduce loses in a power cord and nobody other than the high end audio market is interested?

Ok let's look at interconnects. We have plenty of outlandish claims by the audiophile interconnect companies over their superior cables but yet none of these advancements have any use in the trillion dollar computer networking industry? Do any audiophiles have any idea of how much faster network communications would be if we could reduce the error correction overhead. I mean if thse cable advancements were as good as they say the needed error margine would be miniscule.

How about computer design. If continous cast copper is so good for signal transmission why aren't PC boards made with it?

Seems funny at least to me that these ground breaking achivements in electrical transmission over copper wire is only taking place in tiny garage level high end audio businesses with a equally tiny sales market.

Oh wait, I forgot. We don't listen to electrical energy, we listen to music and that's what flows over the wires!

Simply basic BS marketing strategy casting a wide net ensuring entrapment of but a few of the gullible fish caught up chasing the shiny objects dangling in front of their eyes.

Whether power cords, speaker wire, cable risers, majority of modifications, and on and on, the only ground breaking achievements occur in developing the slickest website design billboard, along of course, the so called scientific claims of hundreds of testimonials (which I question of being authentic).

So we catch the few who want to be caught. Others who hesitate and question the shiny objects in front of them, well they deserve a lesser quality meal (perhaps HTIB variety), too bad for them. Still, our net is large and the ocean is vast, and we will never stop trolling, changing the colors of the bait if it's slow biting.

My two cents.

Mike

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penngray

· #5 · Feb 18, 2010

What amazes me more is that those so called high end audiophiles are generally highly educated individuals that have had GREAT success in their specific fields of expertise allowing them to purchase whatever they want.

They probably have a great deal of common sense when it comes to their own field but when it comes to music their passion and emotion for it overwhelms any logic they should have.

keilwerth

· #6 · Feb 18, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/18159670

What amazes me more is that those so called high end audiophiles are generally highly educated individuals that have had GREAT success in their specific fields of expertise allowing them to purchase whatever they want.

They probably have a great deal of common sense when it comes to their own field but when it comes to music their passion and emotion for it overwhelms any logic they should have.

This is the crux for me. "So called high-end audiophiles."

I'm not sure what definition is of high end audiophile and I really don't care anymore.

Whenever I see or read this phrase, what comes immediately to my mind equates to more money invested translating to better sound.

Therefore only logic is dollars invested is proportional to sound quality.

Then all is lost as the ego introduces noise into the system introducing bit error judgement's.

I've learned also that higher education and having funds available to purchase anything desired may be inversely proportional in possessing common sense.

Mike

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amicusterrae

· #7 · Feb 18, 2010

It's mostly psychosomatic, but I think part of it, too, is that some of the wacko cable designs are adding audible colorations.

See http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_i...ritic_16_r.pdf (starting at PDF page 39).

Maybe it's like a scavenger hunt for the golden ears--an ultimate ego feed--discovering the magical equipment combination that only a few can.

Irony is, a graphic equalizer can accomplish the same thing and more for far less, with full user control. But there's nothing sexy about an inexpensive equalizer.

keilwerth

· #8 · Feb 18, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by amicusterrae /forum/post/18160939

It's mostly psychosomatic, but I think part of it, too, is that some of the wacko cable designs are adding audible colorations.

See http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_i...ritic_16_r.pdf (starting at PDF page 39).

Maybe it's like a scavenger hunt for the golden ears--an ultimate ego feed--discovering the magical equipment combination that only a few can.

Irony is, a graphic equalizer can accomplish the same thing and more for far less, with full user control. But there's nothing sexy about an inexpensive equalizer.

Agreed mostly psychsomatic. Not so sure cable designs represent any influence at all really.

I agree though it is scavenger hunt ONLY for ego and money and golden ears willing to believe and invest.

Afterall, what is left to scavenge and exploit after recent decades, based on centuries, of proven and acepted scientific theory?

Not much more really at this time promising breakthroughs all of a sudden in bigger picture of things.

Especially without divulging and showing benefit for all of mankind even though untold sums of money would be made based on breakthrough.

I have no sympathy for buyers or purveyers of such claimed extraordinary benefits.

They do however cancel each other out in the long run.

Mike

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RMcR

· #9 · Feb 18, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie /forum/post/18158476

I mean we read all these fancy though uncertified claims on wire metalurgy in brochures from high end audio cable manufactures. Some even make such claims as to being able to control electron flow through stranded wire. IOW, make the signals stay on their own strand - what ever that means. I never learned about that in a formal EE program. But then I graduated in 1982 so I'm hopelessly out of date. Anyway, why are these incredible technology breakthorughs only applicable to speaker wires, audio cables and power cords?

Let's take power cords for example. Why isn't this technology being applied to power grid distribution. How about transformer and motor design. If the claims of these power cord companies were viable don't you think GE, Siemens, and other billion dollar electrical companies would be all over it? All we hear about these days is green, green, green with huge tax incentives to develope more efficient technology. But yet some tiny audiophile company has a technology to reduce loses in a power cord and nobody other than the high end audio market is interested?

Ok let's look at interconnects. We have plenty of outlandish claims by the audiophile interconnect companies over their superior cables but yet none of these advancements have any use in the trillion dollar computer networking industry? Do any audiophiles have any idea of how much faster network communications would be if we could reduce the error correction overhead. I mean if thse cable advancements were as good as they say the needed error margine would be miniscule.

How about computer design. If continous cast copper is so good for signal transmission why aren't PC boards made with it?

Seems funny at least to me that these ground breaking achivements in electrical transmission over copper wire is only taking place in tiny garage level high end audio businesses with a equally tiny sales market.

Oh wait, I forgot. We don't listen to electrical energy, we listen to music and that's what flows over the wires!

Great post. Very well said!

penngray

· #10 · Feb 18, 2010

Quote:
I've learned also that higher education and having funds available to purchase anything desired may be inversely proportional in possessing common sense.

Not always but I do remember reading a study on something similar where it was easier to convince those with large $$$ then those with little $$$.

Dynamic1

· #11 · Feb 18, 2010

2

Quote:
Originally Posted by keilwerth /forum/post/18160729

This is the crux for me. "So called high-end audiophiles."

I'm not sure what definition is of high end audiophile and I really don't care anymore.

Whenever I see or read this phrase, what comes immediately to my mind equates to more money invested translating to better sound.

Therefore only logic is dollars invested is proportional to sound quality.

Then all is lost as the ego introduces noise into the system introducing bit error judgement's.

I've learned also that higher education and having funds available to purchase anything desired may be inversely proportional in possessing common sense.

Mike

Ha Ha funny I use to have speakers called EGO when I was in my teens appropriate name

Its funny like that though new speakers/amps/ETC... sounds amazing the first few days or weeks then it sounds like crap to me anyway. Or I find problems that need fixing or replacing with better

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Ethan Winer

· #12 · Feb 18, 2010

Here's my contribution:

AES Audio Myths Workshop

--Ethan

Drew Eckhardt

· #13 · Feb 19, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie /forum/post/18158476

Anyway, why are these incredible technology breakthorughs only applicable to speaker wires, audio cables and power cords?

The placebo effect and expectation bias only come into play when human perception is in the equation instead of quantifiable measurements. It's best exploited commercially in areas where the costs of goods sold are low since that makes for the highest profit margins.

ArthurPE

· #14 · Feb 19, 2010

re: power transmission, it has been developed over years that a certain conductor configuration does improve performance, ie, less inductance and capacitance...leads to less reactive power required to 'charge' the line...

but it seems audio cable guys try to transition this theory to signal cable, when it only benefits power cable, and then only for very high voltages over long distances...

honestly, when it comes to this sort of stuff (could be cars, computers, etc.), it's buyer beware...I would like to 'educate' the world, lol, but who the heck am I, and who's listening?

I believe in certain cable parameters/methods/etc:

power: speakers, etc., minimize R and X as much as possible

keep runs as short as possible, use a large enough gauge Cu wire, fine stranded, standard stuff, no magic

same for interconnects, buy a decent off the shelf set, keep them short

route signal & power seperately/isolate them/cross them perpendicular if necessary

keep the connections clean & tight

just common sense stuff...

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Magnefied

· #15 · Feb 19, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/18159670

What amazes me more is that those so called high end audiophiles are generally highly educated individuals that have had GREAT success in their specific fields of expertise allowing them to purchase whatever they want.

They probably have a great deal of common sense when it comes to their own field but when it comes to music their passion and emotion for it overwhelms any logic they should have.

It's not passion. It's ego, vanity. Dick measuring contest for geeks. Sonic jewelry for the insecure. Look at my cool setup. My cables cost more than your entire system. My speakers cost more than your car. Same reasons people buy Ferrari's and McMansions. Same reasons old farts dump their wives for surgically enhanced 22 year old bimbos. Well, OK maybe there's more than just status involved with that last one.

mcnarus

· #16 · Feb 19, 2010

Quote:
Same reasons old farts dump their wives for surgically enhanced 22 year old bimbos. Well, OK maybe there's more than just status involved with that last one.

Or maybe not.

ArthurPE

· #17 · Feb 19, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied /forum/post/18163948

It's not passion. It's ego, vanity. Dick measuring contest for geeks. Sonic jewelry for the insecure. Look at my cool setup. My cables cost more than your entire system. My speakers cost more than your car. Same reasons people buy Ferrari's and McMansions. Same reasons old farts dump their wives for surgically enhanced 22 year old bimbos. Well, OK maybe there's more than just status involved with that last one.

that's not really fair to lump everyone into the same category...

I'm sure some do it for 'status/ego'...

but doesn't that really just show arrogence and insecurity?

I bet alot do it, for one, they can, two, it's a hobby, a pursuit of perfection...sort of like stamp collecting, seems silly to some, but not to others...only less fiscally sound/investment wise...

they sit around playing 'stereo' like many play with guns, or cars, etc.

if I had the disposable $$$, I would buy a supercar, perhaps not a Ferrari, but a Porsche GT2 or GT3, not for status, but for the thrill, the joy of driving and working on it, the appreciation of the engineering...

as far as big houses, yep silly, I believe in efficiency, but hey, this is America, so to each their own...it's a biotch so many defaulted and left us holding the bag though, along with all the speculation buying/selling, etc.

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localhost127

· #18 · Feb 19, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamic1 /forum/post/18158497

Simply beacuse its garbage. Cisco would have been all over it years ago and thats just one of many. These days does not matter if you buy a $300 cisco cable or a knock off even for use with their High End Routers 100K and up. And the ECC rate or error correction code or packets lost stays the same with either cable. Exact same percentages.

im sorry - what does physical/layer-1 infrastructure have anything to do with cisco hardware/asic design/etc.

and yes, when long-haul fiber/single mode tolerances, light loss/OTDR results come back, cable certainly matters... more so on the termination quality, tho.

Joe Skubinski

· #19 · Feb 19, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurPE /forum/post/18164032

that's not really fair to lump everyone into the same category...

I'm sure some do it for 'status/ego'...

but doesn't that really just show arrogence and insecurity?

I bet alot do it, for one, they can, two, it's a hobby, a pursuit of perfection...sort of like stamp collecting, seems silly to some, but not to others...only less fiscally sound/investment wise...

they sit around playing 'stereo' like many play with guns, or cars, etc.

if I had the disposable $$$, I would buy a supercar, perhaps not a Ferrari, but a Porsche GT2 or GT3, not for status, but for the thrill, the joy of driving and working on it, the appreciation of the engineering...

Speaking of supercars, check out the Nissan GT-R... It's fun, and an engineering marvel!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8_y2...layer_embedded

Dynamic1

· #20 · Feb 19, 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by localhost127 /forum/post/18164434

im sorry - what does physical/layer-1 infrastructure have anything to do with cisco hardware/asic design/etc.

and yes, when long-haul fiber/single mode tolerances, light loss/OTDR results come back, cable certainly matters... more so on the termination quality, tho.

Copper I was reffering to. When Cisco was charging and arm and a leg for their copper cables, and they swore you would experience problems if a aftermarket cable was used. The Cables were identical and from what I heard they were making them in the same factories in China just at night without the Cisco name.

Fibre is a whole different ballgame. Splicing is an art.

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