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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As many will remember I reported about one of these before they were apparently almost anywhere, when Houston had one on display for 3 weeks. It's power supply blew and it had to go back to the factory, but when I finally got out of my defective 65XWX and realized that to get great analog I would have to go to the 57 inch XWX or SWX, I decided to revisit the Lycos, because I remembered it also had very good analog, and was 57 inches in size.


I watched it this time for over an hour, on both DVD and HD, and while it looked a little better on DVD, it appeared very slightly better on HD, and lessor on analog. I love the cabinet and the 1080p, but without being able to accept a 1080p input, that is going to be limited when say 1080p DVD comes out, or am I not correct?


Could some of you explain other than Burn-in, why you find this set worth $5500 more than the SWX and $4000 more than the XWX? I am also a little concerned about the only one in Houston blowing to the point of having to be sent back to Hitachi, so one for one.


My issue is not with the quality of the set, but that the XWX is also very awesome and substantially lessor in cost, and that while 1080p is a huge feature, the biggest part was left out, so that really reduces the value of just upconversion, unless I am not understanding it correctly, which given the price, may be the case. In closing, I do agree that Lycos is really neat, but feel that with Hitachi's superior analog, and overall quality, the asking price is steep, and want to understand from owners, and people leaning that way, why they feel that it is worth it.
 

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LCOS sets are expensive for the same reason other new technologies are. One, they need to start recovering R&D cost to develop it. Two, manufatcuring costs are higher until they can ramp up production to supply a higher market share. If & when LCOS gains acceptance, consumer prices will start to drop.


It wasn't that long ago that DLP sets were $10-15K. Now they're down to $4K give or take.
 

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What the hell is Lycos? :)


First of all, if you pay $8000 for it, you're getting hosed. You should be able to get it for $7000-$7500 at this point. The problem will be locating one of the few remaining sets before they are gone, and production ramps up again for the new model this late summer and going into fall.


The set is arguably MUCH better at reproducing HDTV than the Hitachi sets. It is a fixed panel 1920 x 1080 set, afterall. The Hitachi can not resolve that much definition. This is due to a 7" CRT not being able to pull this off, not that Hitachi is bad or anything.


Now, with that in mind, there are no sources currently available that are giving you everything that HDTV has to offer. Good thing actually, because very few could really show it in all it's glory. The Toshiba LCOS can. The only sources being broadcast are 1080i and 720p right now, so accepting 1080p is really a pretty moot point. I would like it if it could, but it's not a deal breaker at all.


The cost is what it is, like said above, because of the new technology that it is. It will get cheaper, and better as all technologies do. It has been an overwhelming success to this point, because it has sold much quicker than Toshiba expected.


If you can not justify the difference between a $3500-$4000 and a $7000-$7500 set, then I would suggest the Hitachi. If you can swing it, I would suggest the Toshiba LCOS.


The Hitachi is a fine looking set, but it is succeptable to burnin problems, along with needing convergence, and all the other subtle annoyances of CRT RPTV.


The Toshiba will give a better overall picture, especially as the sources get better. It is pricey, but not much can be done about that unless to plan to wait out the price problem until it too can be had at $3500 (not for a few years at least).


BTW, you said the power supply was blown and it had to go back to Hitachi (above). I think you were meaning to say Toshiba. Regarding it "blowing up to the point it had to go back" and all... Well, if it blew, it blew. I believe that Toshiba has been very tight over the problems associated with it's first generation product here. They are mostly wanting all of the problems back in the lab. I don't think anyone has reported having any electronics problems that were field repaired. This is a GoodThing (TM)! The reason is because they are truely trying to find the causes of the problems and get real solutions to them, not bandaids. This is their flagship model, afterall. I like that they are taking this approach. And BTW, from what I can tell, most customers that have purchased these sets and contacted Toshiba seemed to have gotten good responses and new sets (although a few have had small quirks with replacement sets as well).


I know that as a consumer we expect a $7500 set to be perfect. I think that's reasonable. But I also think that it's reasonable to expect a first generation product to have it's share of quirks as well. Test as much as you want in the lab, but in the end, a lot of these problems won't come out until they hit the field.
 

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The imagers in LCOS sets are low-yield devices, probably on the order of 20-30% yield. That makes them expensive. The assmembly of the sets is tricky at this stage, which makes them expensive.


Plus, the Toshiba is the only big-screen consumer device that allows for true 1920 x 1080 digital resolution. That makes it currently unique in the market and therefore worthy of a premium price.


Mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Ten 99
What the hell is Lycos? :)


First of all, if you pay $8000 for it, you're getting hosed. You should be able to get it for $7000-$7500 at this point. The problem will be locating one of the few remaining sets before they are gone, and production ramps up again for the new model this late summer and going into fall.


The set is arguably MUCH better at reproducing HDTV than the Hitachi sets. It is a fixed panel 1920 x 1080 set, afterall. The Hitachi can not resolve that much definition. This is due to a 7" CRT not being able to pull this off, not that Hitachi is bad or anything.


Now, with that in mind, there are no sources currently available that are giving you everything that HDTV has to offer. Good thing actually, because very few could really show it in all it's glory. The Toshiba LCOS can. The only sources being broadcast are 1080i and 720p right now, so accepting 1080p is really a pretty moot point. I would like it if it could, but it's not a deal breaker at all.


The cost is what it is, like said above, because of the new technology that it is. It will get cheaper, and better as all technologies do. It has been an overwhelming success to this point, because it has sold much quicker than Toshiba expected.


If you can not justify the difference between a $3500-$4000 and a $7000-$7500 set, then I would suggest the Hitachi. If you can swing it, I would suggest the Toshiba LCOS.


The Hitachi is a fine looking set, but it is succeptable to burnin problems, along with needing convergence, and all the other subtle annoyances of CRT RPTV.


The Toshiba will give a better overall picture, especially as the sources get better. It is pricey, but not much can be done about that unless to plan to wait out the price problem until it too can be had at $3500 (not for a few years at least).


BTW, you said the power supply was blown and it had to go back to Hitachi (above). I think you were meaning to say Toshiba. Regarding it "blowing up to the point it had to go back" and all... Well, if it blew, it blew. I believe that Toshiba has been very tight over the problems associated with it's first generation product here. They are mostly wanting all of the problems back in the lab. I don't think anyone has reported having any electronics problems that were field repaired. This is a GoodThing (TM)! The reason is because they are truely trying to find the causes of the problems and get real solutions to them, not bandaids. This is their flagship model, afterall. I like that they are taking this approach. And BTW, from what I can tell, most customers that have purchased these sets and contacted Toshiba seemed to have gotten good responses and new sets (although a few have had small quirks with replacement sets as well).


I know that as a consumer we expect a $7500 set to be perfect. I think that's reasonable. But I also think that it's reasonable to expect a first generation product to have it's share of quirks as well. Test as much as you want in the lab, but in the end, a lot of these problems won't come out until they hit the field.
It isn't a question of swinging it,a nd I wasn't asking why they charge the 8k but more why you or anybody else feels it is worth that price, because I don't see it, and so I wonder if there are factors that I am not considering. It looked better in DVD, just slightly better in HD, and worse in analog than the Hitachi, but still very good.

The point with the power supply was 2-fold with the first being it wasn't something that didn' require full replacement of the power supply, as oppossed to just a small glitch, and 2nd that when there is just on in an entire city on display, and that one craters in only a few weeks of play, it is a little concerning about the reliability of that set in it's first generation with a 100% percent fail ratio. I know it is just one set, but it is 0 for 1, which for a serious premium was alarming. The biggest problem I am having is why the heck would you have a 1080p chip but no 1080p input, when you just know that the minute 1080i becomes the standard DVD will go 1080p to provide the next level to market their movies. I thought there must be factors that we didn't know prohibiting this obvious feature, but now am reading that the new Mitsu 82 inch will already have it. Thanks for the help, and if you can think of any other reasons why it is worth it, please let me know.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
The imagers in LCOS sets are low-yield devices, probably on the order of 20-30% yield. That makes them expensive. The assmembly of the sets is tricky at this stage, which makes them expensive.


Plus, the Toshiba is the only big-screen consumer device that allows for true 1920 x 1080 digital resolution. That makes it currently unique in the market and therefore worthy of a premium price.


Mark
I see that people are saying that 7 inch CRT's just can't do 1920 pixels by 1080 lines, but I asked Hitachi this question and their answer was that it could do the full 1920 x 1080 but that it was the broadcasts that were limiting it right now. They also said in order to call it full 1080i capable, it has to be able to do that. I didn't question them on the CRT size at that time, but is that also the reason you are saying it won't do it?


This site is great for getting quick and decisive input, and saves me a lot of time when studying something.
 

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I put in the word *digital* above, to draw distinctions from CRTs. Only 9" CRTs can do 1920 x 1080, btw, 7" ones can't besides there isn't enough room.


No broadcast today is more than about 1400 pixels wide, that is true.


Toshiba's is the only consumer device that allows for true big-screen 1920 x 1080 digital resolution, but it's impossible to get that kind of input in there today without something like D-Theater.


Mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
I put in the word *digital* above, to draw distinctions from CRTs. Only 9" CRTs can do 1920 x 1080, btw, 7" ones can't besides there isn't enough room.


No broadcast today is more than about 1400 pixels wide, that is true.


Toshiba's is the only consumer device that allows for true big-screen 1920 x 1080 digital resolution, but it's impossible to get that kind of input in there today without something like D-Theater.


Mark
Why it says it will do full 1080ix1920 in their ad, but they also used 9 inch CRT's also. Does Hitachi using these wideneck hybrid type guns have any bearing on what it will do, or is it just a function of inches? EVen if that isn't a factor, does anything else that you can think of other than size relate to it?
 

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I seriously don't understand your question. I thought -- and could be wrong -- that you need 9" CRTs because of spot size as a function of the shadow mask or aperture grille on the CRT.


Mark
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Addicted Help!!

I see that people are saying that 7 inch CRT's just can't do 1920 pixels by 1080 lines, but I asked Hitachi this question and their answer was that it could do the full 1920 x 1080 but that it was the broadcasts that were limiting it right now. They also said in order to call it full 1080i capable, it has to be able to do that. I didn't question them on the CRT size at that time, but is that also the reason you are saying it won't do it?
IMO it's a curious case where some can say 7-in-CRT and other sets can display a "full" 1920X1080i and be accurate. Yet at the same time they're not accurate. Stations and other sources can say they're delivering 1920X1080i and be accurate. But they really aren't. Suspect in most cases it's just ignorance, although some may be deliberately trying to deceive.


I think using the term resolvable1920X1080 helps. About the only practical source of fully resolvable 1080i at the moment is a HDTV test-pattern generator (or computer software). A generator can put out 1920 alternating B&W vertical lines used to measure horizontal resolution. Typically it's just a small rectangular 'burst' at this resolution, or a gradually converging wedge of lines. The new but discontinued 57-in LCOS Toshiba set, with three 1920X1080 microdisplay panels, can resolve a 1920-line pattern, as reported in this forum earlier. A few other sets, including graphics-grade electromagnetically focused 9-in-CRT projectors, also can. Haven't measured my RPTV, which has electrostatically focused 9-in-CRTs, but from previous threads and a recent review of Mitsubishi's 9-in-CRT RPTV, suspect it's limited to displaying an upper limit of ~1600-1700 lines.


But the limiting horizontal resolution of 1080i, at the moment, as indicated in Greg Rogers' chart (about 1/2 down the page), is about 1707 lines of resolution. Sony specs its studio cameras at 1000 TVL (per picture height), or 1780 active (visible) lines full HD width (16:9).


Various types of filtering between HD cameras or telecine machines and displays eliminate the higher frequencies needed to show resolutions between, say, 1400 and ~1700. And, if your local station's prefiltered MPEG-2 encoders are limiting 1080i resolutions to ~1400 lines, it appears reconstruction filters in STBs may trim ~1400 lines down an additional ~5-17%. This table indicates this final filtering is about what the ATSC approval experts measured for static and moving test patterns.


So, if details on telecined film or HD-camera sensors requiring ~1200-1700 pixels resolution have been filtered away before they reach displays, what happens? Resolvable detail in that range is gone, so all that remains are varying shades of light or dark where resolvable details existed originally. You might say there's a 1920X1080 image, but it may only have roughly 1200 lines of horizontal resolution. I speculated here that some variations in HD apparent sharpness on screens might be caused by HD 'oversampling', despite filtering limits along the delivery chain. -- John
 

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I think rear projection LCOS along with flat panel LCD are probably the most interesting home theater technologies to watch in the near future. Is it worth the higher price right now? Depends on your budget and how badly you need to buy. Things are a little turbulent on the high end home video market right now with The long standing display technology CRT (direct view and rear projection) being challenged by plasma, LCD rear projection, DLP, and LCOS in terms of PQ. The market is financial turbulent with plasma lcd and dlp becoming less and less expensive. I believe these new technologies reach the price point of CRT in the next 2 to 4 years.


I personally can wait because it have a smaller apartment and I can deal with my 27" Sony Wega at least until i get a bigger place but at the same time if I still had my old Magnavox I would've definitely already purchased the Sammy dlp and if I had the resources I would definitely consider the Toshiba LCOS.
 

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John Mason, you rock!


Thanks for that wonderful summary and explanation.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Ten 99
There are no sources currently available that are giving you everything that HDTV has to offer. Good thing actually, because very few could really show it in all it's glory. The Toshiba LCOS can. The only sources being broadcast are 1080i and 720p right now, so accepting 1080p is really a pretty moot point. I would like it if it could, but it's not a deal breaker at all.
Have you considered D-Theater tapes? They are 25Mbit/sec so can offer higher quality than any of the OTA broadcasts.


As far as 1080p input - I want it for two reasons:


#1: The LCoS have no burn in, and provide sharp digital resolution - so they would make a very logical choice for a big _COMPUTER DISPLAY_. My PC has a DVI output, and I would have loved to been able to use this set for my main PC display. I wouldn't consider a CRT RPTV or Plasma for this because they suffer burn-in.


#2: Software HDTV players like DVHStool and the DVico Fusion software output HD at the PC desktop resolution. My PC runs at 1920x1080p, so it would be great to be able to use it as a software de-interlacer and send 1080p directly to my display device. (Actually I am watching 1080p, but on a smaller CRT computer monitor right now)
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
I seriously don't understand your question. I thought -- and could be wrong -- that you need 9" CRTs because of spot size as a function of the shadow mask or aperture grille on the CRT.


Mark
Rogo: CRT based RPTVs don't have any shadow mask or aperture grille.


The mask/grille is only needed on a direct view CRT that has multi-color phospors in the tube.


CRT RPTVs get by with 3 B&W tubes (no grille/mask) and then they put a color filter (R/G/B) in front of each CRT.


The effective resolution of a CRT RPTV is basically determined by the spot beam size, and the light distortion through the optics.


Small 7" B&W monitors can be made that resolve 1920x1080, *but* CRT RPTVs basically "overdrive" the CRTs to get a brightness level suitable for large screen display. This heightened brightness level blurs the high frequency detail and speeds up the burn in process.
 

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Duh! Of course, PVR. Thank you for that cogent explanation. It complements the above very well.
 

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You sure like to bump the old ones, don't ya


Even after 5 months with no posts, no thread

is dead with Mfusick around.
 

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Sheesh! One wonders how someone could even to manage (or find the reason) to find such an old thread?


In any case, if you have seen a good Toshiba LCoS then even the lack of full 1920X1080i input would give you a picture that is worthly of high dollars.


The problem is with finding a good one....
 
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