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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was all prepared to buy the KDF-E60A20 because I've found it to be a great TV for gaming AND all around. The next thing I know my friend points out the IRIS system in the smaller A10s and the lack of VGA input on A20s. Any comments here?
 

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I am a noob big time but saw the 55 inch and loved it.

I have yet to see the 50 inch but I doubt it could be much better than the 55.

Now,

Noob ?.....what is the VGA for?

Computer hook-up?

:confused:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Oh, you don't have to convince me that the 55" A20 looked nice. When I was testing out TVs and tested the 60" I thought it looked awesome. Although subtle I could easily distinguish the difference between the new model and the old one (they were side by side almost) when it came to how dark the blacks were.

I just want to know WHY they changed up the components for the larger version. The Iris system is used in the newer model that is set to be released in several months for a much higher price. Maybe it is no big deal. I need to research more but that won't make me realize the reasoning for not using the same system on the larger TVs.


The VGA is used by PCs but I have used it on my Elite from the beginning for my HD Receiver. This way I had an extra HD connection. I'm sure my DC-110 (Not positive of the model but the older Panasonic Direct TV HDTV receiver) has the component outs but the VGA seems it would be handy. Yet again, WHY remove it for the larger version of the TVs in the same price range (stepping up with each size)?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kainan
Oh, you don't have to convince me that the 55" A20 looked nice. When I was testing out TVs and tested the 60" I thought it looked awesome. Although subtle I could easily distinguish the difference between the new model and the old one (they were side by side almost) when it came to how dark the blacks were.

I just want to know WHY they changed up the components for the larger version. The Iris system is used in the newer model that is set to be released in several months for a much higher price. Maybe it is no big deal. I need to research more but that won't make me realize the reasoning for not using the same system on the larger TVs.


The VGA is used by PCs but I have used it on my Elite from the beginning for my HD Receiver. This way I had an extra HD connection. I'm sure my DC-110 (Not positive of the model but the older Panasonic Direct TV HDTV receiver) has the component outs but the VGA seems it would be handy. Yet again, WHY remove it for the larger version of the TVs in the same price range (stepping up with each size)?
Man,

You must check out the earlier posts on the new Sony's.

There have been at least 3000 posts about these sets seriously and the bottom line is that no one knows why the 55 and 60 inch models do not have the dynamic Iris' other than the fact that the new 1080p sets are soon to be here and they wished to really separate the bigger models with the Iris etc....
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yeah, I've spent the last hour or two reading through the A10 thread. There seems to be some disagreement as to whether the iris is worth it or not since the A20s have higher res LCDs. Questions lead to more questions.... :confused:
 

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I'm wondering if maybe the IRIS can produce vignetting in the bigger sets. I havent seen one of these sets disassembled so I'm not sure where in the optical path they put the IRIS.


Anyways vignetting would cause uneven brightness in the corners and edges. I'm just theorizing and not basing this on any inside information or anything, so dont take it to serious.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DolfanJay
I'm wondering if maybe the IRIS can produce vignetting in the bigger sets. I havent seen one of these sets disassembled so I'm not sure where in the optical path they put the IRIS.


Anyways vignetting would cause uneven brightness in the corners and edges. I'm just theorizing and not basing this on any inside information or anything, so dont take it to serious.
I like vignetting on my salad sprinkled with a little parmeson cheese.
 

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I'm not convinced the A10s are "better" than the A20s. Having seen numerous examples of each in various stores, I have been consistently stunned by the A20s and not so impressed by the A10s.


Also, the previous 50" and 42" models look better than the A10s to me also. I suspect the higher res panels really make a difference.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenA01
I'm not convinced the A10s are "better" than the A20s. Having seen numerous examples of each in various stores, I have been consistently stunned by the A20s and not so impressed by the A10s.


Also, the previous 50" and 42" models look better than the A10s to me also. I suspect the higher res panels really make a difference.
StevenA01,


I've seen several people say they can't see a difference but you are a rare one indeed to say that the A20s actually look better. Actually you are the first person I know of that has this opinion(then again there are tons of posts so I might have missed one). If I hadn't looked at all the Halo 2 stuff then I might would have said they looked about the same but having the chance to look at something I really KNOW has made things different. In a game you can get a very good idea of how the TV is handling the light because you have 100% control over what you are feeding it (looking at dark areas, light areas, zooming, panning, etc.). If I were you though, I would pick me up an A20 and be happy as can be.

One thing that really trips me out is the comment that the older 50" model looks better. I have to wonder if someone seriously screwed up the settings on the A10 you were looking at. When comparing the new to old models (mostly A20 at the time) I could easily distinguish between the two in black color depth. The blacks truly looked blacker to me and to others I asked to look and give me their opinion. If you think this though I'm sure you could save a LOT of money by going with the older technology. Good luck to you either way.
 

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How does the Sony A20 PQ compare to the older Sony KDF-55WF655? The KDF-55WF655 has PIP. I guess it is being phased out so the window is small for purchasing the older unit. I have been impressed with this TV. Thanks in advance, WolfpackRon.
 

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I have had a 42" Sony WE610 LCD Projection in my living room for about a year now. Just a few weeks ago I got a 42" A10 for my basement.



I can tell you right now that the A10 is a much better tv. The lower resolution is undetectable and the black levels and contrast ratio are clearly better. When you throw in the bevy of extra inputs it's a no brainer that the A10 model is the best LCD Projection Sony has made.



Do not underestimate the value of that dynamic iris. There is a reason that Sony is putting this in their new top of the line XBR sets this fall.
 

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Quote:
I've seen several people say they can't see a difference but you are a rare one indeed to say that the A20s actually look better. Actually you are the first person I know of that has this opinion(then again there are tons of posts so I might have missed one). If I hadn't looked at all the Halo 2 stuff then I might would have said they looked about the same but having the chance to look at something I really KNOW has made things different. In a game you can get a very good idea of how the TV is handling the light because you have 100% control over what you are feeding it (looking at dark areas, light areas, zooming, panning, etc.). If I were you though, I would pick me up an A20 and be happy as can be.

One thing that really trips me out is the comment that the older 50" model looks better. I have to wonder if someone seriously screwed up the settings on the A10 you were looking at. When comparing the new to old models (mostly A20 at the time) I could easily distinguish between the two in black color depth. The blacks truly looked blacker to me and to others I asked to look and give me their opinion. If you think this though I'm sure you could save a LOT of money by going with the older technology. Good luck to you either way.
I agree the general consensus so far seems to be that the A10s are everything the A20s are, but with better blacks/contrast.


But FWIW here are my observations (not very scientific and based on multiple viewings at stores, some presenting the sets better than others):


- SDE was more apparant on the A10 when compared with the previous model. The pixels, and the spaces beteen, look literally "bigger" to me, and this would seem to make sense since the res is higher on the older sets (and on the A20s).


- Although the A10s do have deeper blacks, I found the A20s to have more detail in the dark areas of the image (could be the way the sets were set up, of course).


- The A20s and the previous model 42" and 50" sets look sharper to me. Every A10 I've seen has been slightly soft especially with a DVD source.


- Colors look more vibrant to me on the A20s.


- I've seen what I think is the iris opening and closing when the image shifts from dark to light and vice versa, which I would find distracting.


- I've never seen HD sources look as amazing on the A10s as on the other sets.


I have to end this by saying tha I may just have had a run of bad luck and seen the A10s set up poorly, or showing poor sources, on the several occasions I've seen them in stores.
 

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Found a post by Mondo1287 in the big A10 thread which seems to verify the lack of detail in the blacks, and the softness of the image, that I observed on the A10:

Quote:
The 42A10 looked good, but playing with the settings I couldn't get the clarity of the previous model. I would say lowering the iris causes significant loss in dark detail. It does lower the black level, but you loose detail. The previous model seemed more defined and more "in focus". Their signal quality wasn't too great though, and it was obvious on all their tv's, but still I don't like this iris.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I appreciate your input man and this is why we don't have ONE TV that everyone buys. The only thing I can slightly agree with you on is that the pixels may look slightly larger on the A10s than the A20. When I was standing about 2 to 3 feet away I could see the pixels in bright and colorful scenes. Then again I don't really plan on being 2 to 3 feet away so I dismissed it as a factor that was relevant to me and my purchase.

On most of your other points I slightly disagree to strongly disagree with most of them. My main disagreement would be the level of detail shown in the A20s being better in dark areas. This was a specific thing that I looked at closely in my personal testing. As far as how bright and colorful all of them look, to be honest I can't tell the difference from one to the next. All of them have beautiful color and detail. That's never been their drawback but their strength. The good thing is that you can adjust the iris and from my understanding even turn it off if for some reason you don't like what it does. They aren't using this technology in their 13K and up projectors for nothing. Anyway, as I've said many times, I would encourage people to buy the A10 or the A20 and feel good about it. You and I see things a little different but your input is greatly appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenA01
Found a post by Mondo1287 in the big A10 thread which seems to verify the lack of detail in the blacks, and the softness of the image, that I observed on the A10:
Keep in mind that you are quoting one person while the opinions that are the opposite of his greatly out number him. I've read through the forums and can list tons of people who have nothing but great things to say about the iris. Also, look at what he says,
Quote:
I would say lowering the iris causes significant loss in dark detail.
. I would agree with this. You are making everything darker as you lower the iris but wouldn't one draw the same conclusion if they started adjusting the A10s to be darker than optimal? When the iris is set like it should be set I think it looks better. Any time they give you an adjustable setting it can be a negative when someone sets it wrong. That is a necessary evil of giving someone the option of being able to adjust it. ;)
 

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All fair points.


When it came down to purchasing the A10, I just couldn't find one in a store that made me say "wow," and so I am going with a 55" A20 (plus I like the extra 5").


But in the end, it's what looks better to the individual, and as you say they are both great TVs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenA01
All fair points.


When it came down to purchasing the A10, I just couldn't find one in a store that made me say "wow," and so I am going with a 55" A20 (plus I like the extra 5").


But in the end, it's what looks better to the individual, and as you say they are both great TVs.


I'm sure you will be one happy camper! It is a great TV. I appreciate your points made between the two.
 

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FWIW, I'm thinking of returning my 55 A20. Not because it's a terrible TV or anything, but being a Noob to these sets and HD - I think I came in with unrealistic expectations.


1) I'm not pleased with XBOX on this set at all. First off, all the games are too dark. The scaling is not acceptable to me, I don't like the games stretched to fit 16:9.


2) I watched Monday Night Football tonight, and was a little underwhelmed. The picture again seems a tad dark at times. Brightness doesn't fix this, just washes out the picture/colors. There is what appears to be digital garbage/noise around the edges of jagged lines and the players when they are zoomed out on the field. When players are in motion, it's sort of like they go out of focus. It almost makes me sick to watch. I can't explain what I'm seeing, but it doesn't look anything like motion in sports on my old 26" Trinitron.


Again, perhaps my expectations where out of wack. I expected something crystal clear and razor sharp, I should have done more homework I guess.


Finally, the standard def channels are just incredibly terrible. Some are pretty darn decent, but many are nearly too lousy to watch.


I guess if I'm going to pay $2600 for a TV, and an extra $216 a year to Time Warner for HD DVR and HD channels - I want something that is going to knock my socks off. All I've found in the 48-hours since this set arrived are annoyances.


I'm trying to learn all I can before giving up on this thing, I'm sure I'm doing some things wrong. Hopefully I will find TV nirvana and keep it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisutley
FWIW, I'm thinking of returning my 55 A20. Not because it's a terrible TV or anything, but being a Noob to these sets and HD - I think I came in with unrealistic expectations.


1) I'm not pleased with XBOX on this set at all. First off, all the games are too dark. The scaling is not acceptable to me, I don't like the games stretched to fit 16:9.


2) I watched Monday Night Football tonight, and was a little underwhelmed. The picture again seems a tad dark at times. Brightness doesn't fix this, just washes out the picture/colors. There is what appears to be digital garbage/noise around the edges of jagged lines and the players when they are zoomed out on the field. When players are in motion, it's sort of like they go out of focus. It almost makes me sick to watch. I can't explain what I'm seeing, but it doesn't look anything like motion in sports on my old 26" Trinitron.


Again, perhaps my expectations where out of wack. I expected something crystal clear and razor sharp, I should have done more homework I guess.


Finally, the standard def channels are just incredibly terrible. Some are pretty darn decent, but many are nearly too lousy to watch.


I guess if I'm going to pay $2600 for a TV, and an extra $216 a year to Time Warner for HD DVR and HD channels - I want something that is going to knock my socks off. All I've found in the 48-hours since this set arrived are annoyances.


I'm trying to learn all I can before giving up on this thing, I'm sure I'm doing some things wrong. Hopefully I will find TV nirvana and keep it.


Have you tried getting MNF with an OTA antenna to rule out a cable box problem. The reason I ask is because MNF is one of the most eyepopping experiences in HD. The picture is razor sharp. There is also no motion blur on my Sony LCD RP. I honestly think it has something to do with the cable box. Did you try turning the sharpness down and noise reduction off?


I'm sure you already know this but there are two different ABCs one is like channel 7 and the HD ABC is like channel 205 or something where I live.

I've been over peoples houses who arent happy with the HD and then you look and they are just watching the regular analog channel. They just assume when they switched to HD cable that the regular channels would be replaced by HD channels and not that there would be duplicates.


You are right about one thing for $2600 you should be 100% satisfied. Also for that kind of money there is a lot of competition in HD sets.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisutley
FWIW, I'm thinking of returning my 55 A20. Not because it's a terrible TV or anything, but being a Noob to these sets and HD - I think I came in with unrealistic expectations.


1) I'm not pleased with XBOX on this set at all. First off, all the games are too dark. The scaling is not acceptable to me, I don't like the games stretched to fit 16:9.


2) I watched Monday Night Football tonight, and was a little underwhelmed. The picture again seems a tad dark at times. Brightness doesn't fix this, just washes out the picture/colors. There is what appears to be digital garbage/noise around the edges of jagged lines and the players when they are zoomed out on the field. When players are in motion, it's sort of like they go out of focus. It almost makes me sick to watch. I can't explain what I'm seeing, but it doesn't look anything like motion in sports on my old 26" Trinitron.


Again, perhaps my expectations where out of wack. I expected something crystal clear and razor sharp, I should have done more homework I guess.


Finally, the standard def channels are just incredibly terrible. Some are pretty darn decent, but many are nearly too lousy to watch.


I guess if I'm going to pay $2600 for a TV, and an extra $216 a year to Time Warner for HD DVR and HD channels - I want something that is going to knock my socks off. All I've found in the 48-hours since this set arrived are annoyances.


I'm trying to learn all I can before giving up on this thing, I'm sure I'm doing some things wrong. Hopefully I will find TV nirvana and keep it.
For one thing I'd suggest watching 4:3 content such as 480p video games in a 4:3 aspect ratio and not stretch them. Take advantage of the fact that you have no burn in concerns with a RP LCD and use those bars! My girlfriend thanked me the other day for not being one of those guys that has to stretch the picture to use every square inch of the display. It just looks terrible when you do that!


Not sure SD signals are every going to look great on a fixed pixel display. My roommates RP CRT handles crappy signals better because it can smooth them out but anything looks pixelated on mine in SD right now. Content providers are always trying to compress the hell out of signals to provide more channels...sadly they seem little concerned over quality...and when you take a poorly transmitted 480i signal and blow it up to 55 inches on a microdisplay its going to look pretty bad.


There is no perfect display right now because SD hasn't entirely gone away. I love my A20 for High Def and DVD's. And games will look great with the next line of consoles in a minimum of 720p (Pickup Soul Calibur II or Amped 2 if you want a cheap game to give you a glimpse of the 'future'). I knew going in that some current stuff would suffer, but I guess that's why I still have my 35XBR48 from 7 years ago...
 
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