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I guess I'm being a little bit of a devil's advocate here, and I don't necessarily agree with these statements, but I'd like to hear some good arguments and I think the people on this board are pretty bright.


Why shouldn't the tv networks/studios do anything they can to stop CA?


It is a direct threat to the core of their business model.


From their perspective, what is the difference between replaytv or cable theft of service and CA?


I know that we are a very small group in the big picture, but the right way to stop something like CA is to do it before it gains traction, not after.


If any of you watch Alias, you know what the future of tv will be like if CA becomes the norm -- there was an episode a few weeks ago that featured a full 3-second shot of the badge on a Ford Focus during a car chase. It was shockingly blatant.


Discuss!


No flames please, I just think this is worth discussing.
 

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It's one thing to charge for a subscription service such as HBO or pay-per-view. It's another thing entirely to transmit a signal with no encryption, and expect people to pay for it with their time. Once that signal (or any signal for that matter) is in my home, it is subject to "fair-use". That means that as long as I don't give or sell copies of it away, I am able to enjoy it as I see fit. If I wish to record it and watch it later, view it on my PC, whatever.


If I can't skip commercials, does that mean I MUST watch them? Am I not allowed to leave the room or change the channel during commercials?


That's the argument. No one has the right to tell me how I am to enjoy something in my own home. If you want to charge for it... fine, but once you start dictating my viewing method, there's a problem.



Just my opinion.


01000111
 

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I agree, there's nothing keeping me in front of the tv while commercials are on. I usually go get something to drink, or go to the bathroom or whatever during commercial breaks. I never watched commercials in the past, and I don't watch them now. CA rules (most of the time) and 1 hour shows can now be watched in 40 minutes, thus saving me time.
 

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The one argument that the networks would have to say is that they make some of the commercial breaks so short... so you don't want to leave the room. Also on top of that, there are the regular channel changers who are always running into commercials.


rugby, you may get up everytime a commercial is on, but I doubt everybody does and I think that is the argument of the networks.


I hate commercials and never watch them - when CA is working ;)


I think there has to be some other way... what would have been really nice is if SonicBlue / ReplayTV wasn't able to do an update to just turn CA off... cause you know what is scary? To know that one morning we might wake up and after our nightly update... CA will have just disappeared!
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by airedale
The one argument that the networks would have to say is that they make some of the commercial breaks so short... so you don't want to leave the room. Also on top of that, there are the regular channel changers who are always running into commercials.
Where do you live? I want to move to the land of short commercial breaks. Where I live, commercial breaks have gotten MUCH longer over the past decade, lasting anywhere from 3-5 minutes. During any given 1/2 hour of live TV, I have to sit through 10-13 minutes of commercials (and I'm including the promo spots that run during the closing credits).


The most annoying are the channels that can't sell enough commercial time, so they endless promote their own shows. TLC currently gets my vote as the worst, since during a single 1/2 show this weekend I saw no fewer than 8 (eight!) promotional spots for the same episode of Junkyard wars, 5 for While You Were Out and Changing Rooms, and god knows what else. It felt like my brain was melting. That's what I get for watching live TV.
 

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I guess I'd sort of expect the broadcasters to fight CA.


What really bugs me is that "fight" isn't really the right word. In an ideal world, the two parties would go to an impartial forum, get a ruling and live with that. In the real world, the guy with the most money is usually able to steam roller the little guy.


It's that real world behavior that always has me bugged.


But, I think that public opinion will soon be the big guy in this fight. Not necessarily with CA, but with advertising in general. Have you noticed that web pop-ups are replacing Saddam as public enemy number 1? Get that many people annoyed, and money ain't gonna help.


And, you have to wonder about the business plan that says:


Step 1: Annoy potential customers

Step 2: ???

Step 3: Profits!


and right now, that's the business plan that people seem to be using. They seem to have lost sight of the objective, which is to sell product first, build brand loyalty second. Instead, they think the objective is forcing people to see their ads.


The goal isn't to make people see your ads, it isn't necessarily even to make people remember your ads. The goal is to get people to buy your product, and for the life of me, I don't see how annoying them is going to achieve that objective.


To tell the truth, I think one of the more effective jobs of advertising was that rather shameless product placement for the Ford Focus in Alias a few weeks back.
 

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They will fight, but they should loose. I do sympathize with their problem, but it is their problem to work out as they adjust to new technology. Remote controls are clearly a bigger threat to commercials on a large scale than CA currently and I bet they are upset that they didn't fight that technology when it was developed (maybe they did, I was too young). Could you imagine the uproar if the TV execs tried to outlaw tv remote controls tomorrow? It really is the same idea as taking on CA. I know some will say that with the remote you may bump into at least parts of commercials - but don't they want you to see their commercials. Also, the real big issue is that CA only works for shows I'm not compelled to watch live! I'm not going to miss many comercials for Survivor for instance (coors light anyone?). Of course Survivor was also one of the first to begin in-show ads with things like Dorrito's, Coors Light (Miller light before), and Mountain Dew all as blatant in-show ads (that didn't really annoy me either).


I'm sure the execs know that the real answer is to develop shows that compell people to watch live and sit through comercials (hell make the comercials entertaining too and I won't even make a bathroom run). They might also need to come up with creative ways to sell ads in the shows without annoying the viewers. Some shows might have to move to pay channels like HBO and Showtime. They know these are the answers, but until they find creative people to make this happin, they'll just call up the lawyers to stall as long as they can. Hopefully, they don't slip one by the justice system while a judge is asleep at the bench.
 

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I thought the product placements in the early Survivor series were a hoot.


I mean, here you got these people who've been out in the middle of nowhere for weeks, getting eaten alive by bugs and generally starving to death. Subject them to a grueling physical contest for what reward?


Doritos and Mt. Dew.


You'd have to really work to be any more mean spirited than that.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by airedale
The one argument that the networks would have to say is that they make some of the commercial breaks so short...
Short commercial break? Define short. :)


Seriously, and on another note, I'm surprised the networks didn't fight to get the MUTE button removed from TV sets when it first appeared in the 70s. Before the days of CA, I would mute each and every commercial break, and do something else while the break was on. Occassionally would miss when the program started back up, but compared to the annoyance of commercials, I didn't mind.
 

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Networks have the right to try to stop it, but we as consumers and manufacturers of products have the same right to prevent it from being stopped.


First off, theft of service, in the case of TV programming, is the viewer receiving and viewing a program that they are otherwise not entitled to watch because they didn't pay for the service. ReplayTV's CA is removing content that the viewer is (presumably) entitled to view. Time Shifting removes the control of the network schedule and moves the control to the viewer. Is it theft of service? I would say no. I am either paying to receive the content (in the case of Cable or Satellite) or I am watching WHAT I AM FREELY OFFERED by broadcast networks. When and how I watch should be my choice, not the networks.


The problem is in the current network model. There has always been an "implied" agreement that the viewer would watch the commercials that pay for the programming. Why? Because the "Broadcast" networks have no control over who receives their content, so advertizing must be done with a "shotgun" method. Blast out the ads, and SOMEONE will bite. They rely on the commercials for revenue. Of course, none of us signed anything or agreed to any EULA, so that impled agreement is not contractual.


Bring in the Digital Cable company or Satellite provider, and the rules change. Suddenly, we have s system that can control the content and who receives it. The problem with that is that they have greedily combined the Broadcast model with the Subscription model, so not only are we paying to receive the content, but on most channels, we also have to receive commercials. Only your "premium" or "Pay-per-view" channels offer uninterrupted content. But have you seen what goes on BETWEEN the shows on premium and pay-per view channels? It's an advertizing blitz that would make your head spin.


Another question is does a viewer have the right to "alter" the content (ie: remove commercials) that is fed to them. The Networks would say "No." Some Networks are claiming that by removing the commercials, you are breaking copyright laws because you are altering the original proadcast. The ethical and legal question that will need to be addressed is what rights does the viewer have? If I go out and buy a book, do I have the right to remove pages I don't like to make the story more readable? If I buy a magazine, do I have the right to tear out ads that I don't want to see? From a TV viewer perspective, do we have the right to remove commercials? I think the answer is obvious, but the networks would have you believe otherwise.


I know it's very easy to simply say "Then they need to change their business model." but the fact remains that as technology advances, traditional business models must be re-thought. And, they are. For example, take a look at the "bug" at the bottom of the screen and see what it has evolved into. It used to be a simple graphic in the corner that let you know what network you were watching. Now, it's a multi-media presentation that sometimes takes up the entire lower fifth of the screen amounting to nothing more than an animated banner ad. And they play it DURING the show, so basically, they are no longer exclusivly using commercial breaks for commercials. Granted, they use this space to promote other "shows", not "products" but just wait...


The other thing is that commercials have become predictable and redundant. During Prime Time, what commercials do you typically see? Car ads, Old Navy ads, and Dell computer ads. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I have NEVER bought a car, Old Navy clothing, or a computer based on TV ads. Targeted advertizing could be done very easily using a PVR. Just download targeted content and offer it to the viewer. I can't speak for everyone, but I know that I would be MUCH more likely to watch commercials if they were interesting and relevant TO ME. The point is that I should not be forced to watch a commercial. I should have the right to choose to view it or not.


Unfortunatly, there are no easy answers.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by RandyL712
Let's put it this way - am I allowed to tape (to VHS) a show, edit out the commercials, and watch it? Of course I am. And that's all Commercial Advance or Commercial Skip does.
Of course, WE all know that, but... ;)
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by RandyL712
Let's put it this way - am I allowed to tape (to VHS) a show, edit out the commercials, and watch it? Of course I am. And that's all Commercial Advance or Commercial Skip does.
As sad as it may seem, I don't think the networks' lawyers were agree with this statement. This brings up my very general, perhaps ignorant question -- what is the basis for the CA lawsuit against SB/Replay? Does anyone know the theory of the case (i.e. why the networks believe that CA is illegal?) Is there a site that has the complaint posted on it?


Update: I found the complaint on the EFF website...
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by RandyL712
Let's put it this way - am I allowed to tape (to VHS) a show, edit out the commercials, and watch it? Of course I am. And that's all Commercial Advance or Commercial Skip does.
Actually, I think a more analogous question is: "Am I allowed to sell a service to others to provide them with edited versions of shows that air on broadcast television?" as that is essentially what content companies are claiming is happening (or if that is not their argument, it should be). Makes it harder to argue the point.


/carmi
 

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Ok, so what's the basis for their suit?


That's the other part of advertising that really gets me. I don't think anyone's disputing the advertiser's right to buy the air time and use it to broadcast whatever the heck they want (within FCC regulations, of course).


I just don't get the apparent mental leap that they have made. They seem to be saying that since they paid for the ads, we're somehow obliged to watch them. And, should we carry out our "obligation," that we'll be somehow favorably predisposed to the company.


I've been getting a big kick out of Target commercials ever since they used that Devo song. I've been finding their commercials to be interesting, colorfully creative, and maybe even worth watching once or twice.


I wouldn't be caught dead shopping at Target, though. I just can't stand their stores, that's all.


But they have nice ads.
 

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I wonder if they'll cart us off to jail for using software to kill pop-up ads in our internet browsers. After all, those ads pay for those free internet pages, so we have no right to suppress them and violate our 'implied contract', right? Yeah, right.
 

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Hey - I often record ball games and then when viewing I skip to the last ten minutes to see how the game finishes up. Not only am I skipping commercials, I'm not even watching their whole program. Then, at other times, I just turn the TV and DVR off, viewing/recording nothing.


Wonder if they want to sue me for that?


Tim
 

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No, they just want to chain you to the LazyBoy, prop up your eyelids with toothpicks, and threaten you with no access to the bathroom unless you buy, buy, buy.....
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Ico-Jones


From their perspective, what is the difference between replaytv or cable theft of service and CA?
I understand your want to discuss this but this statement just makes me mad. I hate it when I hear that we are stealing TV. Last I checked I paid my cable bill! Last I checked I paid my Sat bill! How is it I steal when I pay for the service every month!!!


Here is something to think about. If I shut off my TV and go to bed am I stealing TV? Maybe that will be next. TV must be on when you are sleeping because you are missing commercials and that is stealing!


Ok I know that is a little far fetched but that is what I feel like when I hear this comment from the TV industry!


This is why I loved SonicBlue! It wasn't the CA! Who really cares it is nice but the point was that they stood up for what they believed in and fought to keep things like our privacy and innovative ideas like CA. It is sad and in my mind injust that this can be done to smaller companies. Things should not be able to be held up in court until a company goes bankrupt where is the monopolistic protection there!


The lost isn't about CA but it is the loss of our freedoms.


Thanks for listening!!
 

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CA is nothing new. There are VCRs that have it. There was fast forward before then. I used to be able to hit stop, fast foward, play and be at the end of the commercials about as accurately as our beloved CA. Why aren't these VCRs being sued, why didn't I get sued?


What really ticks me off though is not that they are suing, but that this lawsuit costs MILLIONS and drove Replay to bankruptcy, and there's not even a F**Kin resolution to it. WTF did they spend millions on? millions. freaking millions. What the F?
 
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