AVS Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 46 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,900 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sonic Blue announced that the 4500 would be carried by Tweeter (about 150 stores), Good Guys (75 stores) and The Wiz (41 stores). Circuit City (600 stores) alone has twice as many stores as all three of the others combined. Why have they not signed contracts with any of the bigger electronics retailers?


Seems it will be hard to achieve volume sales with so few retail outlets.


/carmi
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,119 Posts
Who cares? I guess only majortom.


It's never been about the numbers it's about putting out a profitable quality product. I suppose TiVo is still trying to learn a thing or two? SB is not one to follow the old ways of thinking. The last thing we need is another TiVo, since we already have that option. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,900 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by KenL
Who cares? I guess only majortom.


It's never been about the numbers it's about putting out a profitable quality product. I suppose TiVo is still trying to learn a thing or two? SB is not one to follow the old ways of thinking. The last thing we need is another TiVo, since we already have that option. ;)
Volume is needed in order to be able to deliver the service profitably. TiVo has been able to get it service cost per subscriber down as low as it has because it has a large enough number of customers that it can afford to use broadcast delivery for guide data and can sign high volume contracts with its ISPs.


Finally, volume is needed to amortize the R&D costs of the product. If they cannot achieve volume, they will not put more R&D money into better products and additional features.


What is it that TiVo is supposed to learn from Sonic Blue's retail strategy? From what I can tell TiVo added more subscribers in the last three months (42,000) than Sonic Blue has sold total.


/carmi
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
254 Posts
I believe a contract is in the works with Circuit City. The local store manager was quite upset they weren't going to be in on the first shipment, but said they were working out the details of a contract with SB to sell them.


Who knows if that's all true, but seems unlikely he'd go through the motions if they weren't planning on selling them soon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,900 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by themarshall
I believe a contract is in the works with Circuit City. The local store manager was quite upset they weren't going to be in on the first shipment, but said they were working out the details of a contract with SB to sell them.


Who knows if that's all true, but seems unlikely he'd go through the motions if they weren't planning on selling them soon.
I hope that is true. I cannot understand why they would not try to sign a contract with them. I am just surprised that they were not the first chain they signed up.


/carmi
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
826 Posts
Why would you buy from them?


I can understanding marketing your product to as many people as possible. But retail outlets like Circuit City offer me little as a consumer. . .


As to TiVo's market share. . .we are the minority all of us who use pvrs. There are so few out there that we're not talking "mass marketing" yet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,207 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by themarshall
I believe a contract is in the works with Circuit City. The local store manager was quite upset they weren't going to be in on the first shipment, but said they were working out the details of a contract with SB to sell them.
lol... so the leader of the clueless people knows something? Having been a mgr, let me tell you: mgr's don't know anything more than salespeople. And salespeople know nothing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,900 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by RandyL712
lol... so the leader of the clueless people knows something? Having been a mgr, let me tell you: mgr's don't know anything more than salespeople. And salespeople know nothing.
That fits my understanding of the situation. My ex managed a Good Guys in San Diego and he said he found out more from the internet than from Corporate.


/carmi
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,119 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by majortom
Volume is needed in order to be able to deliver the service profitably.
Oh really? Well that's the old way of thinking. It's sure not the whole story by any means. Else TiVo wouldn't have the dire need for all those intrusive partner spam assaults? We keep hearing those are a necessary evil since the $12.95/month isn't enough?


Well there are plenty of small companies of all kinds providing great services to the end users (and @ a profit) when a commitment to the end user experience is even a part of the plan. Nope bigger isn't "always better" just as much as it isn't always evil. I don't buy those tired cliches for a minute. M$... AOL?? Make your own judgments. ;)


@ any rate none of the PVR's (all combined) have reached any major penetration going on 4 years in... the marketplace is still wide open... even supposing the (to quote arjay) "High-End" SB Replays were designed for RandyL712 or everyone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,686 Posts
It's supposed to be a big race or contest or something, don'tcha know, KenL?


I think the real point of this (and at least one other) topic is for all you guys to grab rulers and drop trou.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
678 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by majortom
Why have they not signed contracts with any of the bigger electronics retailers?


Seems it will be hard to achieve volume sales with so few retail outlets.
The more outlets the merrier. It's a matter of negotiating contracts. But you're right availability makes a difference.


BTW, TiVo is currently limited to BB.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,119 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by toots
It's supposed to be a big race or contest or something, don'tcha know, KenL?
Oh I know. Just another besetementiaan excuse to hang and always drop a bit more trou than really needed?


@ least some are open minded enough to swing it more than a single direction?


(toots' silly string and o' course the cat-o'-nine-tails!) http://www.plauder-smilies.de/party/dance.gif
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,900 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by hroeder
Why would you buy from them?
I would buy from them if they had the best price or I wanted my box right now.

Quote:
I can understanding marketing your product to as many people as possible. But retail outlets like Circuit City offer me little as a consumer. . .
While it may be true that they do not offer you anything, they are still the way that the vast majority of customers purchase CE gear. For a product to succeed in the market, its customers have to be able to buy it.

Quote:
As to TiVo's market share. . .we are the minority all of us who use pvrs. There are so few out there that we're not talking "mass marketing" yet.
That is true, but at 422,000 subscribers, TiVo now has the volume they need to drive down the cost of providing the service.


/carmi
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,119 Posts
and for TiVo to additionally opt everyone universally out of the offensive spam offensive since that's not what we paid for.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
826 Posts
>but at 422,000 subscribers, TiVo now has the volume they need
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,900 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by KenL
Oh really? Well that's the old way of thinking. It's sure not the whole story by any means.
What is the rest of the story? There are both fixed and variable costs to provide the service, give that Sonic Blue is currently charging the same price as TiVo for their service they must find a way to deliver the service profitably for less than the interest they receive on $250 a year. Otherwise, they lose money on the service and will have to stop providing it.


The way to decrease the price per user for fixed costs is to spread that price over as many users as possible. Additionally, having a larger installed base make other things possible (using broadcast data transmission as TiVo now does only makes sense if you have a large enough user base to spread the costs over), and allows a company to negotiate volume pricing for their ISP contract.


A large installed base also makes customer data more valuable, something that will add revenue and eventually drive down the cost to the end user for the service.

Quote:
Else TiVo wouldn't have the dire need for all those intrusive partner spam assaults? We keep hearing those are a necessary evil since the $12.95/month isn't enough?
As a long time TiVo customer (as well as an UltimateTV DishPVR 501owner, I did not find the Cherryl Crow video, the Francis Ford Coppola interview or the Lexus ads intrusive. I really enjoyed the FFC interview and I choose to participate in the Lexus sweepstakes (although many of my friends that also owned TiVo receivers did not). None of those programs prevented me from receiving the content that I had set my TiVo receivers to record, nor from viewing that content. In fact, I only even knew that the FFC interview was there because I read about it on here and then went to look for it on my box.


With volume, TiVo will be able to sell enough viewing data and enhanced ads to completely eliminate their monthly fee altogether. TiVo new method for delivering guide and other data over the broadcast channel (something that requires a large installed base) will further drive their cost per user down which they will eventually be able to pass on to their subscribers.

Quote:
Well there are plenty of small companies of all kinds providing great services to the end users (and @ a profit) when a commitment to the end user experience is even a part of the plan.
While I am sure that this is true, I fail to see its relevance. Both TiVo and Sonic Blue have to be able to profitably deliver their service for less per user than the interest they receive on $250. Certainly there are other approaches that people could take, but that is the path both are currently following.

Quote:
Nope bigger isn't "always better" just as much as it isn't always evil. I don't buy those tired cliches for a minute. M$... AOL?? Make your own judgments. ;)
I certainly have not said that bigger is always better.

Quote:
@ any rate none of the PVR's (all combined) have reached any major penetration going on 4 years in... the marketplace is still wide open... even supposing the (to quote arjay) "High-End" SB Replays were designed for RandyL712 or everyone.
I thought that you said that volume did not matter? Why should you care if the market is wide open?


/carmi
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by majortom



What is the rest of the story? There are both fixed and variable costs to provide the service, give that Sonic Blue is currently charging the same price as TiVo for their service they must find a way to deliver the service profitably for less than the interest they receive on $250 a year. Otherwise, they lose money on the service and will have to stop providing it.

Your math is too simplistic. This is a per-box charge. What is the average lifespan of a box? 4 years max? You have to amortize the price over the expected life-span to complete the calculations.

Quote:




With volume, TiVo will be able to sell enough viewing data and enhanced ads to completely eliminate their monthly fee altogether. TiVo new method for delivering guide and other data over the broadcast channel (something that requires a large installed base) will further drive their cost per user down which they will eventually be able to pass on to their subscribers.



They Will? When have they stated this publically?


If people are willing to pay, they never will get rid of their subscription fees.


Here is the Tivo scenario which scares the death out of me.


Tivo has a schedule of times when a Coke add will appear. This will happen several times during the day, so they are essentially assured an empty slot can be found to record it.


Every Tivo has the add downloaded into their box sometime during a given period, where it remain dormant.


Then, whenever you Pause your live broadcast, surprise, you get a lovely Coke commercial shoved down your throat.


Hopefully, this scenario will never come to be, but Tivo is inching closer and closer to this model.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,448 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by majortom
they must find a way to deliver the service profitably for less than the interest they receive on $250 a year.
Minor nitpick: they can dip into the $250 over the lifetime of the unit's service. Presumably they have usage models that give predictions for what that lifetime may be.


I'd think that by knowing that Tivo counts $250 today as equivalent to $12.95/month for the lifetime, you could calculate what their estimate for the lifetime is, but financial calculations like this always confuse me. Any CPAs out there?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,119 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by majortom
...With volume, TiVo will be able to sell enough viewing data and enhanced ads to completely eliminate their monthly fee altogether.
I find that laughable. Instead of going from 9.95 to 12.95 the fee will be eliminated? Well then why didn't it happen since PVR's have taken over? Oh and I suppose your going to tell us in your vision (hallucination) TiVo will add CA also? I'd bet you were also heavily invested in the "Get Paid to Surf the Web" movement?


Hey if you have that much pull inside then make it happen! Not holding my breath waiting around for that one. :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,207 Posts
I'm all for arguing with Major tom :), but your ideas are way off.



Quote:
Originally posted by deadken
Here is the Tivo scenario which scares the death out of me.


Tivo has a schedule of times when a Coke add will appear. This will happen several times during the day, so they are essentially assured an empty slot can be found to record it.


Every Tivo has the add downloaded into their box sometime during a given period, where it remain dormant.


Then, whenever you Pause your live broadcast, surprise, you get a lovely Coke commercial shoved down your throat.


Hopefully, this scenario will never come to be, but Tivo is inching closer and closer to this model.
First of all, your unit connects every night. It can download the commercial then.


Second, you're PAUSED. who cares what your unit shows you? Replay already does/did this and there was no reason to complain. Commercials ONLY when I'm NOT wathcing the unit? Party on!
 
1 - 20 of 46 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top