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Why, Why, For the love of God....Whyyyyy

2323 Views 22 Replies 14 Participants Last post by slb, Jan 22, 2007

murphyjp

Discussion Starter · Jan 15, 2007

Why do most of the Pioneers at BB have IR/burn-in and none of the Panasonics do? I've been to 2 different BB's and in both cases at least 50% of the Pioneers (42, 50, 60's) have IR/burn-in from the stores video loop. I've seen it on the Samsungs too and the damn pixel shift function was even active. In all cases it is the same image that is retained. None of the Panasonics displayed any of this. It begs the question, what does Panasonic do differently than the others to avoid or suppress IR/burn-in? I'll be visiting a 3rd store today and will report what I see.

For the last week I've been struggling with the decision of ordering the Panny or Pioneer and then this comes up. I do game (maybe 2 hours/sitting) so it is a potential concern. I've always been a skeptic of the whole IR/burn-in issue. I've seen burn-in on older plasmas that have been hanging in bars showing the same station for 3-4 years, but I've always reserved judgement on the new panels.

Any thoughts?

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

RomanInvision

· #2 · Jan 15, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyjp /forum/post/0

Why do most of the Pioneers at BB have IR/burn-in and none of the Panasonics do? I've been to 2 different BB's and in both cases at least 50% of the Pioneers (42, 50, 60's) have IR/burn-in from the stores video loop. I've seen it on the Samsungs too and the damn pixel shift function was even active. In all cases it is the same image that is retained. None of the Panasonics displayed any of this. It begs the question, what does Panasonic do differently than the others to avoid or suppress IR/burn-in? I'll be visiting a 3rd store today and will report what I see.

For the last week I've been struggling with the decision of ordering the Panny or Pioneer and then this comes up. I do game (maybe 2 hours/sitting) so it is a potential concern. I've always been a skeptic of the whole IR/burn-in issue. I've seen burn-in on older plasmas that have been hanging in bars showing the same station for 3-4 years, but I've always reserved judgement on the new panels.

Any thoughts?

I went to a couple of BB's last Sat. (checking competition) Did not notice any issues. Keep me posted as I am curious. From various customer feedback I have not noticed them state that Pioneer has many issues with burn in.

dlconner

· #3 · Jan 15, 2007

None of the pioneers at my local BB are showing IR/BI as well. I wonder if they were stuck on a certain screen over an extended period of time that caused issues, (sometimes the Pio's at BB will freeze up due to their crappy feeds)

Dufusyte

· #4 · Jan 15, 2007

If you don't plan on playing a video loop 24/7 at home, this should not be a problem. Panasonics may be more IR resistent because Panasonic whites are dirty gray instead of white like a Pio. Duller whites = less IR. You can also turn doen the contrast on a Pio to achieve the same effect.

murphyjp

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jan 15, 2007

I went to 2 different stores and saw the same issues with the same sets both pioneers and samsungs. I'm visiting a 3rd store today.

Plasma_Plasma

· #6 · Jan 15, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dufusyte /forum/post/0

If you don't plan on playing a video loop 24/7 at home, this should not be a problem. Panasonics may be more IR resistent because Panasonic whites are dirty gray instead of white like a Pio. Duller whites = less IR. You can also turn doen the contrast on a Pio to achieve the same effect.

Dufusyte,

Please explain how you're able to come up with this concept of Panny whites are dirty gray comparing to the Pio. I am confused, please enlighten me.

whsbuss

· #7 · Jan 15, 2007

Before I got my 5071 I did the same tests visiting 6 different BB's in my area. In all cases both the Pio and Samsung were side-by-side, and the Panny 2 sets right or left. I knew video loop content could increase IR potential, so I looked at the 3 sets over and over again. I never saw any IR or burn on any of them.

In the 3 stores nearer my house, I even turned the sets off (when the BB sales hounds were not looking)... still nothing appeared. I can agree with the comment of the screen freezing... that could cause IR for sure. But under normal usage, it should not be a problem.

soloist3

· #8 · Jan 15, 2007

While I think I do detect a little bit of grey in a full white image on my Panasonic it definitely beats the Pioneer I had that had pink-ish whites, also, I do not know if Pioneer still has this, but on the 4th gen Pioneer I owned the peak white compressor really did not allow the panel to get very bright either (when displaying a near full white screen).

I think Panasonic is doing what they did with their CRT's, what I mean is that I think Pioneer and Panasonic have probably the same black levels except Panasonic has darker tinted front glass (like the "Panablack" CRT's), this may explain why the whites look a little grey-ish. About the burn-in issue, Panasonic has stated since about the 7th generation that they have developed a new phosphor composition that resists burn-in almost as well as CRT, so perhaps Pioneer is not using the same type of phosphor.

Dufusyte

· #9 · Jan 15, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma_Plasma /forum/post/0

Please explain how you're able to come up with this concept of Panny whites are dirty gray comparing to the Pio.

This seems to be a the common opinion of viewers:

LCD has the brightest whites

Plasmas have next brightest whites

Panasonic has the least bright white of plasmas

Go to Best Buy and compare for yourself. In the 2006 models, Panasonic did make their panels alot brighter than the previous generations of Panasonic; there were alot of Panasonic fans who complained about the new brighter Panasonic panels. I think even the current Panasonics are still less bright than the current Pio's however.

but you can decide that for yourself

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slb

· #10 · Jan 15, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dufusyte /forum/post/0

This seems to be a the common opinion of viewers:

LCD has the brightest whites

Plasmas have next brightest whites

Panasonic has the least bright white of plasmas

Go to Best Buy and compare for yourself. In the 2006 models, Panasonic did make their panels alot brighter than the previous generations of Panasonic; there were alot of Panasonic fans who complained about the new brighter Panasonic panels. I think even the current Panasonics are still less bright than the current Pio's however.

but you can decide that for yourself

Unfortunately, one cannot properly compare display PQ in most retail environments.

There is only one correct "color" for white, and that is defined as D65 or D6500. Once this is set correctly, then the only difference becomes peak brightness, however, nearly all flat panel displays produce peak brightness that is higher than necessary (or desirable) for the average home viewing environment. IMHO, when properly set up, Panasonic and Pioneer plasmas produce very similar pictures, with Panasonic having a slight edge in black level and Pioneer having an edge in signal processing/scaling. But as far as white goes, I personally don't see much difference.

soloist3

· #11 · Jan 15, 2007

Like I said I think that the front glass on the Panasonic is darker tinted. It looks like the same effect as comparing the HiBlack Trinitron that Sony came out with in 1994 to the regular Trinitron that came before it (well and after it as Sony discontinued that tube in 1997). Keep in mind that almost all plasma's have a peak white compressor (on earlier models I used to be able to see it work, there was a split second delay, almost like how JVC's CRT's would clamp down on peak whites). This is done to protect the panel and even out the peak whites so that you do not have to turn the contrast/brightness down during commercials.

To me the Panasonic Panels gets PLENTY bright enough, in fact I find Pioneer's get too bright (much like Trinitrons compared to a regular shadow mask CRT). The near full screen white may not be as bright on the Panasonic but thankfully there does not seem to be any color influence in the white; like I said it seems that most plasma's I see have pink-ish whites.

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soloist3

· #12 · Jan 15, 2007

By the way, the peak white compressor does not work on any object that hits the peak white level it applies to overall signal level, I am not really sure the formula they use, but basically most of the signal has to be peaking for the compressor to work. I just did not want any confusion where people think that every single object on screen that hits that threshold gets compressed, only really intense white scenes that occupy the majority of the screen get compressed.

johnnybrulez

· #13 · Jan 15, 2007

Pioneers will IR from time to time.

Also. Panasonics do the same. (In... FACT. My friends 9uk IR'd worse than my Pioneer. Every movie I've watched I've never seen any residue of a lighter bar on the top or bottom of my 5071. On my friends 9uk it was noticeable.)

Any IR on Panasonics or Pioneers will disappear. I gamed for about 4 hours on one night... playing Marvel Ultimtate Alliance. Anyone who's played that knows about those asking for burn-in life bars.

I saw IR after the session, watched INHD for about 10 minutes, and they were gone.

dlconner

· #14 · Jan 15, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by soloist3 /forum/post/0

While I think I do detect a little bit of grey in a full white image on my Panasonic it definitely beats the Pioneer I had that had pink-ish whites, also, I do not know if Pioneer still has this, but on the 4th gen Pioneer I owned the peak white compressor really did not allow the panel to get very bright either (when displaying a near full white screen).

I think Panasonic is doing what they did with their CRT's, what I mean is that I think Pioneer and Panasonic have probably the same black levels except Panasonic has darker tinted front glass (like the "Panablack" CRT's), this may explain why the whites look a little grey-ish. About the burn-in issue, Panasonic has stated since about the 7th generation that they have developed a new phosphor composition that resists burn-in almost as well as CRT, so perhaps Pioneer is not using the same type of phosphor.

There is a huge difference between a 4th gen pio, and my 7th gen 5071...the white are not pinkesh on the 7th gen, they are very white

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Elemental1

· #15 · Jan 15, 2007

I have ZERO IR/Burn in and crisp whites.

I have no idea why people keep saying these things about Panasonics.

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soloist3

· #16 · Jan 15, 2007

I only had IR that lasted about 2 minutes and that was after playing Street Fighter 2 Turbo for about 45 minutes (I almost never played games on it, I just figured now that I am way past the break in period I can do some occasionally gaming with it). Anyway, do not get me wrong the white looks very white to me I just know that my Dad's Pioneer gets much brighter (it looks like his front glass is basically untinted) so it makes sense that in stores the Panasonic might look a little bit darker/grey-ish.

murphyjp

Discussion Starter · #17 · Jan 15, 2007

Well after visiting my 3rd BB, I can report that the 4271, and 5071 both had the same issues. The 4271 was the worst at this store. The 6071 looked pretty clean. Again, the panny was clean.

I certainly understand they torment these poor tv's, and that the IR likely remains because the same image is looped back on the screen every several minutes. But when you are so close to making the plunge, something like this tends to make you go Hmmmm.

The 2 brands I'm deciding between are panny and pio. One consistently has this issue at the stores, and the other consistently does not have this issue. I'm still leaning to the pio but since I do game I think it is something to consider. How much weight will this carry into my final decision, not much since I do know these sets are abused in the store. As we all know though, once that seed is planted...... We all know how many crazy threads there are about people freaking about burn-in. I don't consider myself one of the paranoid freaks when it comes to burn-in as I do know facts. I just found this very interesting and thought maybe it may lend some insight as to some of the manufacturers advancement in this area compared to others.

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slb

· #18 · Jan 16, 2007

Be aware that image retention and burn-in are different issues. Image retention is not permanent, it is caused by residual charge build-up in the pixel cavities and usually disappears within a few minutes. Burn-in is permanent and is caused by uneven aging of the phosphors, however, it can often be made invisible with additional selective aging of the affected areas of the display.

I have seen IR on our new Panasonic plasma a few times during the first 200 hours of use, however, it disappeared quickly, and I haven't noticed any IR lately. We're on our second Panasonic plasma, we had the first for 3½ years and there was never any visible signs of burn-in.

Magic(tm)

· #19 · Jan 16, 2007

Well in our BS here in Lafayette, IN both the 4270 and the 5070 had IR or BI. I could see different logos even when the screen was turned of. Anyway not just where the unit running 24/7 (okay well at least the hours the shop is open) the contrast was bumb up to extreme levels. Also the units where only around 2 Month old when I saw it so in the end its really what people say. Just be a little carefull for the first 100 hours and then you should be fine. Don't ask me if it was IR or Burn in. I don't know but when I came back 2 month later still the same thing ... but the video loop hadn't changed either.

What is correct is that I didn't saw it on the Pana's but their contrast level does not seemed to be so upregulated as it clearly was at the Pio's.

deke rivers

· #20 · Jan 16, 2007

i got a bit of faint IR on my Samsung which I would never have noticed until I went into the all white option..so now I regulary run the allwhite for about 10 min and it clears up any IR that may have built up before it becomes troublesome..its a nice feature

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