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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The bass management on my pioneer 563a basically sucks and i was going to return it & get a more expensive player like the denon2900 but after researching alot i think using an external outlaw ICBM with the 563a will yeild better results than a better high end player....am i correct?...any input would be much appreciated..
 

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it should be better...........afterall, you'd have more control over it, wouldn't you?

Although I don't have trouble with bass and my 563. I don't understand all the problems people are having with it. If I got any more bass than I do, it would be so strong and distort so bad, it would ruin my speaker............. I, somehow, already get strong bass!

I've heard of ICBM, but never seen or heard one...........
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
what size speakers do you have?...do you have a receiver that applies bass management to its analog inputs?..i'm specifically talking ONLY about dvd-audio & sacd..not dolby digital or dts..bass is fine on dd & dts.
 

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jph1207,

I just got rid of the 563a and bought the Denon DVD-2200. The first thing I noticed when listening to SACD and DVD-Audio was the I finally had plenty of bass. I was considering the ICBM as well but by the time you pay for it and add six more cables to your system, you might as well get rid of the Pionner and get a new DVD player. Not only is the bass better using the Denon but my whole SACD.DVD-A collection sounds much, much better. there is more definition and the soundstage is very realistic. Midrange is dead on now. What are you using for equipment? Speakers, reciever etc.....


Charles
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
my original question still remains though...i'm guessing the 563a & the ICBM will still do much better BM than the denon..right?..im sure the denon is better than the pioneer for BM but the ICBM has so many more options..ie many different crossover, lfe mixing & gain.. front channel recombine etc...hoiw much is the 2200?...i had been considering the 2900...i am using a pioneer elite 53tx..paradigm centers & surrounds and currently JBL bookshelfs & subs although i am going to replace the jbl's with all paradigm as soon as i can afford it
 

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My speakers are 2 way, 20+" tall Allison AL 115's. I'm also talking about dvd-a and sacd playback. I don't know why I get plenty of bass, when a lot of people complain about it. Not sure if receiver supplies the bass to the analog inputs............. it's a JVC RX8020VBK.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
emoxley,

do you have 5 of those allison speakers?...how big are the woofers?...if you have 5 full range speakers than BM is a non issue & you will have plenty of bass...its when you have small satellite speakers or small centers (or even fronts for that matter) that BM is critical!!
 

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no.........my center is a small Pioneer and my rears are small Sonys.

My Allisons are 2 way. An 8" woofer and a 1 1/2" tweeter. They are 10+ yrs. old, and sound as good today, as the day I bought them.

Friends have been over, and I've told them how a lot of people complain about the bass with the dvd-a and sacd music. They are always surprised, after hearing mine. They say that they hear plenty of bass with mine.

Evidently, everything is just a perfect match ............... or something. I don't know what to say.
 

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A couple of thoughts. First, I'll second Charles' post above about switching from the 563 to the Denon 2200. The 2200 is an amazing player for about $500. The audio quality is outstanding for SACD, DVD-A and redbook. Video quality is great. I notice a big difference between the 563 and 2200.


As to the bass management with the 563, the issue for me wasn't a lack of bass. I had plenty of bass with my speakers set to small with a sub. The problem with the 563 is that the fixed crossovers for SACD (120Hz) and DVD-A (200Hz) are too high, especially for DVD-A. So, the issue is not that too little bass is being fed to the sub. It's that the fixed crossover in the 563 is sending too much of the high frequencies to the sub.


With the Denon 2200, the fixed crossover for both SACD and DVD-A is 80Hz in both cases. That is more in line with a standard crossover, so only the lower frequencies are sent to the sub. In my system, this has resulted in a much more coherent sound than I got with the 563.


As to the bass management on the Denon vs. the Outlaw ICBM, of course you would have more flexibility with the Outlaw. And the cost of the Outlaw when added to the 563 would still be lower than some of the competing players. But in my case, I didn't want the additional unit, cables, etc. I wanted an affordible, one-unit solution, and the Denon 2200 provided that for me.


The Denon 2900 is supposed to even have noticeably better audio playback than the 2200, which is scary considering how good the 2200 sounds. But, that's another story.
 

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How do you know if high frequencies are going to the sub, since all you hear from it is bass? What does it matter what the crossover setting is, as long as it works? Explain these to me..........?

I have a friend that has a Denon 2803 receiver, a Denon 2200 player and high end Polk Audio speakers. He even says that sacd and dvd-a playback on mine, sounds as good as his............
 

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Quote:
How do you know if high frequencies are going to the sub, since all you hear from it is bass? What does it matter what the crossover setting is, as long as it works? Explain these to me..........?
If you are crossing over at say 200 Hz, then everything below that is stripped from the main speakers that are set to "small", and sent to the sub.


But, many subs have un-defeatable low pass crossovers, which means everything above a certain frequency is attenuated.


Side note: Crossovers are not brick walls; some frequencies above/below still get by, but are attenuated.


Back to the example. Lets say your sub has a maximum, non-defeatable crossover at 120 Hz. Assuming the 563's 200 Hz, crossover, you would loose everything between 120 and 200 Hz. Thats a pretty big hole in the FR of your system.


An additional issue with a high crossover is that frequencies above say 80 Hz are localized (more of less). The point of a good sub/main speaker crossover is that you will not be able to tell that the bass is coming from the sub. At 200 Hz, you definitely WILL tell its coming from the sub.


If your rig sounds good to you and your buddy, then don't worry, be happy. But the problem with the 563's BM is real. It may not show itself in your room with your gear, but thats not the case with many users.


If you have a disc with discrete test tones (1/3 octave or better) and a RS SPL meter, you might take a a few readings at your listening position and see what the in room FR really is. I bet you will be surprised at what you see.


FWIW, the crossover in my Pio 45a was better in terms of crossover frequency than the 563 (about 100 Hz IIRC), but an ICBM still made a big improvement in my room with my gear and my ears.


BGL
 

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Good explanation BGL. In follow-up to the prior posts, I want to make it clear that the 563 sounded very good. It is a darn good performer for the price. But, as BGL explained, the high crossovers do have a real impact.


I checked with SVS, and essentially, my PB1-ISD drops off above 120Hz. So, with the 563 crossing over at 200Hz for DVD-A, I was missing out on everything between 120Hz and 200Hz. Now, in practice, DVD-A sounded fine. But, it just didn't sound "right" with my system. When I switched to the Denon, I found out what I was missing.


I'm not an expert on all of this stuff. But, since the 80Hz crossover of the

Denon was an important feature to me, I was willing to pay a bit more to get it. Alternatively, the 563 alone is a fine option. Finally, the 563 with the Outlaw ICBM is a very good option if you don't mind the extra layer of equipment and cables.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
jeffrey & bgl,

Can I assume that with all speakers set to large on the 563a there will be NO BM at all and all full range signals will be passed to the Outlaw ICBM?...since i actually have 3 different size speakers (fronts 8", center 5" and rear bipolar satellites) i like the flexibility of being able to set the crossover differently for each speaker size (as opposed to either off or 80hz on the denon)..please respond with any & all thoughts...thanks..jph1207
 

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Quote:
Can I assume that with all speakers set to large on the 563a there will be NO BM at all and all full range signals will be passed to the Outlaw ICBM?...
Exactly right. That is the preferred setting when using an ICBM or any other means of external bass management. Also, make sure that you do have it set for all large AND sub on, because most all uni players do not redirect the .1 channel to the mains when the sub is set to off. All large/sub off would mean that everything on the .1 channel would be lost.


I personally required 80 Hz all around for compatibility with a HT EQ (Audio Control Bijou), but the ICBM does let you choose different settings for the front pair, center, and rears.


BGL
 

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I have another solution for you. You could upgrade your receiver to an HK 7200 which can now be had for around $900 (not that much more than an ICBM!). The 7200 has BM for the analog inputs for the SACD/DVD-A channels (up to eight channels if needed). Set your 563a to large all around and subwoofer ON to bypass the 563 BM. Now you can apply triple crossover set to anything you like for Fronts, Center and Surrounds. I have my Fronts set to 60Hz Center and Rears to 80Hz. No extra cables and after you exchange/sell your existing receiver your costs could be quite low. You would also have more power to your speakers from this monstrous receiver. If you don't have a large space and lots of ventillation the HK may not be a good solution though.
 

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I don't think the HK7200 is a bad solution, but I think the HK 525 has the same BM for multichannel audio for substantially less money. Of course, with either of those options, you get more D/A conversions which is not ideal. What practical effect that has on the sound quality, I don't know.
 

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jeffrey r,


Although I'm not positive on this, I expect that the ICBM would also have to do a D/A conversion to apply BM. In my setup the compression is noticeable but tolerable. The 7200 has a Cirrus Logic DAC which I believe handles the conversion well and which I believe is a step ahead of the 525 in processing power. Not sure what the ICBM uses.
 

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What would be helpful to me will be finding a way to tell conclusively whether or not my receiver (Onkyo TX-DS787) can perform BM on the multichannel analog inputs. Assuming I set the 563's setup to all large/sub yes.


Which test tones on Avia/DVE would be most useful to perform this test with the RS level meter?
 

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outlier2,


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I have another solution for you. You could upgrade your receiver to an HK 7200 which can now be had for around $900 (not that much more than an ICBM!).

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I think I missed something here, how is $900 not much more then a $250 ICBM?


I personally have a Denon 2900 and an ICBM to solve my BM issues since I have all satellites and a sub.
 

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Switching to a HK7200 from an Elite 53tx an upgrade? Hardly.

I've found setting the 563 channel level at +6db for the sub, and leaving the rest flat (0db) and setting all spkr to large and sub on does just fine.


Be sure to set the 53tx crossover at 80hz, and you might want to play with the Bass Peak Level in the Expert adj. menu.


Another thing to try if you have a powered sub, is when you do your calibration with the MCACC, be sure the sub level is at 50% or as low as MCACC will allow, so if needed you can increase the sub level for certain recordings if you feel the bass level is lacking.


I have nearly 50 hi-rez recordings (DVD-A & SACD) and find the bass level just fine.
 
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