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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Did that get your attention.

I have asked this question before , but people seem relaxed about it.

How can you crt owners be sure of having access to future digital out copy right protected material. Very few crts have a digital input, even fewer that will accept copy protected material.


In Barcos crt forever new Cine line launch. Only the top model will offer a digital input board as an option.


What would happen if current analog out set top boxes no longer worked due to new broadcasting technlologies or standards employed by the broadcasters.


I am sure things could be hacked , but I guess people with crts woyld like to stay on the legal side.


What crts offfer digital in for copy protected material?
 

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I don't doubt that there will be a converter box for some time until the end of life for most analog devices. Just like a Hi-DEF receiver can downconvert the signal to normal video at this time.


Marc
 

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Tinman, I think that the whole point of HDCP is to close the "analog hole" that exists. No digital copy protection scheme can survive the conversion to analog and as such, there is a big push from Hollywood to keep the signal digital with copy protection until it hits the display device. If your display device cannot take that, then they will downgrade the resolution to 480i or 480p (I don't remember which) and you are stuck with that. Not the solution people with a $20,000 projector want to hear.


I seriously doubt that they will be able to shut off HD for any non-HDCP items for at least the next 10 years if even then. The FCC has stated many times that it will not allow a copy protection system to be mandated that would make all existing HDTV sets obsolete.


Nobody has been able to crack HDCP because you don't need to. When people cannot use their equipment in the way it was intended because of a copy protection scheme, you will find enterprising people who will crack the system. In fact, you can get the DVI->RGBHV converter out of any RPTV that uses a CRT projector and has DVI inputs. It just might take a little hacking to get it to work. If the end device is analog, like CRT is, then the signal must at some point convert to analog. There is no way around this.
 

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If you can see material on a CRT monitor, you can see it on a CRT projector. I don't see CRT monitors going anywhere anytime soon. HTPC is a beautiful thing. So are CRT projectors hooked up to them.
 

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I read somewhere recently that HDCP has already been hacked. How about that. They don't really have a standard but what they are proposing has been hacked. The author could not divulge the method due to law, but said it is quite simple.


Walt
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yes at some time it has to be converted to analog form. My question is if crt projector manufacturers are going to make that accessible to you in a legal manner. It is very likely that there will be some work arounds , but they might have some drawbacks and even be illegal. Would you not like to have a solution that a reputable companies support.


What crt projector manufacturers are active in providing these solutions today?


Can broadcaster use technology such that existing set top boxes only output lower quality signals in analog form?


Crt followers should be active in pushing for digital input for threir loved ones. Just because it is digital in crts will still be wonderfully analog internally eternally.
 

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Mattias:


First: Mike Young is on the money.


Second: Who cares!!! For only $800 bucks you can have the best picture available....bar none. The near term benefits of owning a used CRT projector far outweigh some perceived problem in the distant future. Get real.
 

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I am fully aware of what HDCP is supposed to do.

I am basically saying that it will HAVE to be backwards compatible for some time to allow the eventual phasing out of analog displays. People simply won't stand for their just bought expensive toys to be unusable in one stroke. I know that Hollywood would love this, but it just won't happen.

And, as stated, it will be/has beem hacked anyway.

BTW, there was a petition regarding this a while ago, did everyone sign it?


Marc
 

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AND ALWAYS REMEMBER WHEN IT COMES TO B.S. LAWS


NO PUNISHMENT NO CRIME


:D :D :D :D :D :D


XANATOS:cool: :D :cool:
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by susan7566
....some perceived problem in the distant future. Get real.
It's a legitimate question--and it *is* real.


There are zero guarantees that future digital sources will support analog outputs (heck, there's draft legislation under consideration that requires the "termination of equipment with analog outputs" as of 7/1/05, in other words, no more analog outputs on *any* video device), and short of some company building DVI/HDCP (HDMI) input cards for projectors (not likely to happen given the HDCP engineering robustness requirements and the small target audience), we may be squeezed out of the "best" video has to offer. Not necessarily cut off, but more likely presented with a suboptimized signal.


DirecTV has been testing HDCP flagging for some time now, and all indications are that they are prepping for a production rollout for select content at the behest of content providers (e.g., HD PPV, special events, etc.)...they're not testing it for their health. The new crop of upscaling DVD players only output 720p/1080i via DVI/HDCP (although I can think of two such boxes that break the rules and will likely becomes collector's items in short order :)). The future HD-DVD spec will surely rest on DVI/HDCP (HDMI)...and given that it is currently illegal to have a normal DVD player output anything above 480p for NTSC signals for CSS video, I'm not sleeping easy at night assuming that the HD-DVD spec will allow full resolution HD analog output...and that's assuming that an HD-DVD player makes it to market before the "no more analog outputs" bill goes into effect (assuming it passes).


At the very least, some of the "cool" things I *want* to do with a signal could be cast asunder by digital CP...for example, I can take a Sony HD-200 HD STB and connect it to a HD Leeza via DVI to turn 1080i/60 into 1080p/72 (film) or 1080p/60 (video) purely in the digital domain, with analog output via RGBHV to my projector. Perfect...unless the signal is HDCP flagged, at which point the HD Leeza is required to disable all analog outputs...as in no more picture. This is in the here and now. Sure, I can always fall back on the HD-200's analog pathway (assuming that DirecTV doesn't throw the analog block switch in tandem with the HDCP switch as many are guessing may happen), but it's just not the same. With the new digital sources coming online in the next 2-3 years, I can envision a life where I have a projector fully capable of handling 1080p/60 and 1080p/72, but I'm forced to live with 1080i/60 (at best) because of digital CP.


People who buy CRT front projectors are usually after the best that they can get (sometimes the best that video has to offer, period). The cruel irony is that we as a group may be forced to sit on the sidelines in the very near future, as our digital projector bretheren bask in the warm glow of digital perfect 1080p/60, etc.
 

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It is my intension to fully enjoy burning the crap out of a couple of sets of tubes long before that happends. By then maby there will be a digital display that will satisfy me. As far as copy protection goes, look at the price of "new releases" on DVD. You can buy two disc sets with all the extras for under $20.00 and older movies under $10.00. So why even consider it? As far as hackers go, history has shown that nothing is beond the reach of a dedicated hacker. When push comes to shove, someone familier to this forum will devise an adapter/ interface for our beloved artifacts. At least I hope so. Where is MP?


Chip S.
 

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I would take it easy, if man has made the encryption/system/encoder/decoder whatever then it can be hacked.


Somewere it has to be decoded, if it's handled in the display device you only need to target the way the display device handles the information and make a box that do the same thing but output it to different connector.


I mean, a kid in Norway hacked the DVD encryption and it wasn't long, half a year after DVD became widespread or so.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr.Poindexter
If your display device cannot take that, then they will downgrade the resolution to 480i or 480p (I don't remember which) and you are stuck with that.
When the source is flagged for constrained analog outputs, the device must not output an image that contains more information than a 960x540 video.

Quote:


I seriously doubt that they will be able to shut off HD for any non-HDCP items for at least the next 10 years if even then. The FCC has stated many times that it will not allow a copy protection system to be mandated that would make all existing HDTV sets obsolete.
For better or worse, the FCC is not involved with the pre-recorded media market. Although they may forbid output constraint use on OTA material, that's irrelevant for many of us as long as it's edited and has commercials.
 

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I know you "digital" guys think were old and stuck in our ways but as Mike stated and from what I see there will be component video outputs or HD-15 jacks on everything.


Come on I dont think everything is going to have the DVI jack and the DVI jack on them alone for output. RCA jacks and BNC's have been around forever and guess what, there not going anywhere.


The thing is I read a ton of post on here about the fact that you cant run long runs of digital cable because you get impeadance problems where you dont really have this problem when you run your analog video feeds to a projector. This may not be 100% revelent to this post but its here any way.


Most likely you will have a digital receiver that will accept DVI input and it will output the signal as an analog video signal to a display device by component video or an HD-15.


I beleive this is why most of US CRT guys are kicking back and not crapping our pants because we dont have DVI inputs on our projectors. Its like many of us that have a composit input and or an svideo input on the projector and never use it. Its the worst connection. So you take your DVI output through an HTPC and then go HD-15 to RGBHV to the projector.


Watch lets see if this this happens. If not oh well, my friend will gladly take my CRT and use it for his 19' COBALT Sport Boat as an anchor :)


What about the guys that only use the projector for DVD playback. They dont really care anyway.
 

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Well, the first hash bar is now open in canada. I am not too concerned about my projector being illegal. Whatever happened to filesharing being so taboo? They may try to crack down, but there is ALWAYS a loophole. The only thing I concern myself with is being spoiled with my CRT's and being forced into a digital pj that doesn't stack up with the image I get out of my barco. I have a good 40+ years left to live, I hope I can still hear and see well enough to enjoy a good movie on a quality PJ.


-Garrick
 

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Dutch cryptography scientist Niels Ferguson authored a paper detailing security weaknesses in the HDCP content protection system.


Fearing prosecution he chose not to publish it. Under the DMCA's "trafficking" provision, an individual who disseminates a "technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof" that discusses how to circumvent encrypted devices can face civil or criminal consequences.

17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(2) (2001)

Ferguson discusses free speech implications about this but also notes on his website that:


"HDCP is fatally flawed. My results show that an experienced IT person can recover the HDCP master key in about 2 weeks using four computers and 50 HDCP displays. Once you know the master key, you can decrypt any movie, impersonate any HDCP device, and even create new HDCP devices that will work with the 'official' ones. This is really, really bad news for a security system. If this master key is ever published, HDCP will provide no protection whatsoever. The flaws in HDCP are not hard to find."

I would think the collective brainpower on the AVS forum could handle a de-encryption of HDCP. I wonder if I can get prosecuted just for posting this?

http://www.macfergus.com/niels/dmca/cia.html
 

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I'm a CRT guy, but in the longer run (20 years if that probably), there won't be any need to kill CRT legally, it'll just peter out. There won't be enough of a market to even justify making them, and the ones still around won't be able to get licenses for new digital schemes. They'll just die a natural death. And, by that time, I have little doubt that digital will be far surpassing what we are doing with CRT systems now, in resolution, color reproduction, obviously geometry issues and such, and so on. There's just no way that CRT can continue to compete with digital, because that's where all the R&D is going to be.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Dean Roddey
but in the longer run (20 years if that probably), there won't be any need to kill CRT legally, it'll just peter out.
Probably, but no one can really say that with absolute certainty. Tube audio components (designs that are basically 50 and 60 years old) never really petered out, for example, because they offer qualities that still cannot be entirely replicated by solid state audio.


While the tube audio gear is expensive, large , produces lots of heat, requires replacement tubes and is harder to maintain (sound familiar?) it survives as a niche for people who desire those exclusive sonic qualities, especially in the high-end. In fact, in recent years tube audio has been going through a renaissance and brand new products are being designed and marketed...


...and 20 years after Sony-Philips gave us "Perfect (digital) Sound Forever" Shure is still selling the V15-VxMR phono cartridge...


(Geez. when did I become so partisan?)
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I take it that no manufacturers are moving towards adding digital input to their projecters. If I was in charge I would add the digital input to the crt, it can not hurt in anyway, it would be an added bonus.


I mean there are crt owner that likes to keep it simple. For them there should be crts with digital in and also good internal processing of the signal. The broadcasts and content will be 100 percent digital in the future so there is only an advantage to keep it digital until the crt has to display it.


When Barco started their crt forever marketing they launched 4 new products. It would have been much more credible long term if they had added a digital input. For products that cost between 10-60k$ it is a shame that they did not include a digital input.
 

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But I think Barco's new Cine9 is "prepared" for digital input.

According to Barco in the "Special Guest" forum.

Or it was somewere else.

So if "all digital" comes up, I wouldn't think it would take Barco to much time to come up with a digital input.
 
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