[MarshMaster]

I have never used "In Ceiling" speakers before and have always had some pretty decent floor standing or bookshelf speakers. We pre-wired for "inceiling" speakers in my new construction home but am now getting nervous...Let me explain. When I first hired the guy to do the pre-wiring, I didn't care to research anything because I had an incredible amount of other things on my plate at the time. Now that I have started to research receivers etc. I am really starting to care how things are going to sound. If I am going to put out $1,000 to $1,800 on a receiver (really like the Pioneer Elite SC-25 right now), would it be wasted by using "in ceiling" speakers. I know there are many different levels of speaker, but I am looking for a "Generally speaking" answer.

Because of my schedule (and other things I won't get into) I simply can't get away to audition speakers right now. Will I be greatly disappointed with the in ceilings?

I am no audiophile, but I want to enjoy my Blue Ray movies and music.


The cutouts (8.5") are for speakers with 6.5" woofers. Would it likely be worth it to step up to bigger in ceilings??? My installer wants to use Proficient speakers which range in construction (poly, graphite, kevlar) and price. I wish I could be more specific about which speakers, but obviously that decision has not been made yet primarily due to my general concerns about "in ceiling" speakers.

thanks for any guidance

 

[cdy2179]

If this is for a Home theater?? If so you will be very very disapointed. In ceilings are good for just general music listening in a kitchen, bathroom etc. For A home theater they are so far from a proper set-up they'll make you want to move and start over. I wouldn't waste my money on a nice AVR with speakers that are so sub par for HT.


As long as it's not for HT they'll be fine.. but you may want to use a sub as most of them generally have little bass... I built (I was the General contractor) my house 3 years ago so I know what you're going through... I built a dedicated HT and have inceiling speakers through out other parts of the house.

 

[buzzy_]

If they are for more than background music, yes you will be disappointed.


Too bad you cut the holes already, you could just wait until you have time to deal with this. Maybe they could do a temporary patch or something. Or fill them with something inexpensive, like these Polks to use until you have time to think about this.


BTW, Proficient is a custom installer brand, that is, one not really available at retail because its designed to be resold at a markup it can't really sustain in the marketplace.


Longer term you might think about using the in ceilings for surrounds, and using in-walls or conventional speakers for the front left, right, center.

 

[cdy2179]

Holes can be patched very easy even 8" holes and after the drywallers come in you'll never no they were there.

 

[cornhulio]

I don't think you'll be disappointed with some higher end in ceiling speakers like Paradigms. If you try to cut corners and buy the cheapest ones you can find then yes you will be disappointed.

 

[cdy2179]



Quote:
Originally Posted by cornhulio /forum/post/18199231


I don't think you'll be disappointed with some higher end in ceiling speakers like Paradigms. If you try to cut corners and buy the cheapest ones you can find then yes you will be disappointed.

It's not a quesiton of quality it's location. As stated they can be great for background music, or in bathrooms, kitchens, sitting areas, patios etc. For Home theater you want the voices and action anchored to the screen not the ceiling.

 

[craig john]

I will throw out another reason you will be disappointed: those Proficient speakers are backless; they have no integral enclosures.
http://www.proficientaudio.com/main.html

They depend on the drywall and the lumber in your wall to be the speaker "enclosures". Ever seen a speaker enclosure made of drywall and studs? Of course not. Speaker enclosures are made of wood or other non-resoanant, non-porous materials like MDF, and for good reason:
http://www.cepro.com/article/how_to_...peaker_systems


Also, without enclosures, the backwave of the speakers will bleed sound into the rest of the house. If there are bedrooms upstairs, you'll need to be very quite in the HT when others are sleeping.


So, not only will the imaging suffer from the overhead placement, the sound quality will suffer from the lack of enclosures, and other people in the house will be able to hear the theater as well or better than you, the listener. Overall, in-ceilings are a *bad* design for HT, and those speakers in particular are bad HT speakers. Sorry.


Can you have them patch the holes and re-wire for in-walls? Then you can get in-walls with integral enclosures, solving all the above problems:

Triad

Klipsch THX Ultra2

Atlantic Technology THX Ultra2

etc.


Craig

 

[cdy2179]



Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john /forum/post/18199313


I will throw out another reason you will be disappointed: those Proficient speakers are backless; they have no integral enclosures.
http://www.proficientaudio.com/main.html

They depend on the drywall and the lumber in your wall to be the speaker "enclosures". Ever seen a speaker enclosure made of drywall and studs? Of course not. Speaker enclosures are made of wood or other non-resoanant, non-porous materials like MDF, and for good reason.


Also, without enclosures, the backwave of the speakers will bleed sound into the rest of the house. If there are bedrooms upstairs, you'll need to be very quite in the HT when others are sleeping.


So, not only will the imaging suffer from the overhead placement, the sound quality will suffer from the lack of enclosures, and other people in the house will be able to hear the theater as well or better than you, the listener. Overall, in-ceilings are a *bad* design for HT, and those speakers in particular are bad HT speakers. Sorry.


Can you have them patch the holes and re-wire for in-walls? Then you can get in-walls with integral enclosures, solving all the above problems:

Triad

Klipsch THX Ultra2

Atlantic Technology THX Ultra2

etc.


Craig

Agree 100%

 

[Menasor]

I would personally go with normal speakers for the front 3. As far as the surrounds, in-ceilings can work pretty well if you don't have the room for normal surrounds. In my room I HAD to go with in-ceiling surrounds and am very happy with them

 

[Tim916]

If you can accommodate free standing speakers in the room then you will be much happier with the resulting sound. In-walls would be good too if you could afford Triads or something similar.

 

[mjg100]



Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 /forum/post/18199208


Holes can be patched very easy even 8" holes and after the drywallers come in you'll never no they were there.

Patching the hole. Cut a 2x4 that is several inches longer than the hole diameter. Fit the 2x4 up through the hole and center on the hole. Take some drywall screws and screw the 2x4 on each side of the hole. Take the piece of drywall that was cut out and glue and screw it to the 2x4. Use drywall tape and mud to patch the opening.


In other words do not go with in ceiling speakers for HT use.

 

[kgveteran]

In ceilings get a bad rap sometimes. Proficient in ceiling have really worked well. One thing that lets them open up is a highist XO point like 100hz. Make sure your sub isnt pointed right at you or it may beam a bit and give away its location with that high of a XO point.


KG

 

[porsche951]



Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 /forum/post/18199304


It's not a quesiton of quality it's location. As stated they can be great for background music, or in bathrooms, kitchens, sitting areas, patios etc. For Home theater you want the voices and action anchored to the screen not the ceiling.

+1 The crappy location will never produce a good soundstage.

 

[Mantis10]

I'm a huge fan of Living spaces theater with all in ceiling speakers and even in wall in floor in cabinet type sub woofers.


Using poor placement and poor quality speakers no matter if they are free standing or otherwise will never give you good sound. So if they are placed properly in the ceiling for your seating ,then you can have a excellent experience and I would challenge anyone who thinks other wise. I will go as far as to say whoever don't think all in the wall or ceiling can't work has not heard a system properly setup.


I don't know about these Proficient brand speakers. I have never used them myself but I can give you a list of brands I know work wonders. I'll try to stay in a reasonable budget and I'll throw in a few expensive but worth it brands.


1) Paradigm- this company makes extremely good in ceiling speakers as well as in wall subs. They have amiable models that can impress most audiophile level people for a beautiful home theater experience. I have Installed them many times and never once had a disappointed customer.


2) Definitive Technology-dynamic dynamic dynamic. There in ceiling in wall speakers for theater are some of the best I've Installed at any price. So damn impressive even for music playback.


3)polk audio- affordable choice for someone who wants a lot and don't have a lot of money. They do however offer a full THX ULTRA series speaker package in wall thats out of this world for theater. I did a full RTS systems a few years ago and it blew me away. WOW , they are based off their LSI line which is probably one of the best affordable audiophile sounding speakers on the planet.


4) B&W- most will bash , put down , tell you to stay away due to over pricing blah blah blah . I say forget the haters and experience B&W for yourself. B&W in ceiling speakers are simply breath taking. you don't expect the level of performance you hear when listening. They really sound fantastic especially for surrounds. Man I installed my first full in ceiling B&W / Rotel system way back in 2002. This system I was a little pissed that the customer turned down a full floor standing and on wall hung speaker package that he really liked due to his wife didn't want all those speakers all over her (not his) room. She loved the idea all the speakers(except the sub which we hid) could go into the ceiling. So when I went out to do the Install , I spec'd the best placement possible which actually was more accurate to spec then free standing. The ceiling offered better placement then the room walls and floor offered due to room design and seating placement.

When the job was fully installed and calibrated I was not prepared for the experience I was about to have. The customer and myself where sitting on the couch just laughing out loud on how damn good his new system sounded. We ran clip after clip of his favorite movies and never once was let down. We used 2 subs for room covering bass and man I was so impressed. From that day I never clowned in ceiling speakers for theater ever again.

I was a picky you can only use on wall and free standing speakers for music and theater but after I experienced B&W in ceiling theater , that all changed.


Triad- expensive but worth every single penny. Probably arguably the very best theater speakers money can buy. I have no words other then go to a dealer with a dedicated theater properly setup and calibrated and hold on to your seat. You can explain afterwards your experience. Not many speakers in the world can perform as good or better then Triad.


Klipsch- Like Definitive Technology Dynamic range has no limits here. Klipsch is probably even better for dynamics. Theater in ceiling experience from Klipsch is very high quality and very commercial theater like sound. They know how to do it and they do it right. I'm not the biggest fan for music experience as they tend to wear me down after a while due to the horns , I prefer a speaker thats more calm or soft if you will for music . I like for the most part calm music like Jazz , Celtic female laid back easy listening music. Klipsch speakers for me can't satisfy me here. But Rock music anything up beat and especially theater I love them to death. Just watch movies like Twister , Matrix , Star Wars , Gladiator , Spiderman etc and you will experience them for the first time again. When Darth maul and Obi wan fight with Light sabers , when they clash , you feel like they are in your room and you get a chill up your spine. It's actually a little scary and exciting the first time you experience this. I was shocked my first time and fell in love.


So basically I suggest talking to your installer about better higher quality speakers. Back boxes are a way to improve a in ceiling speaker. There are companies that make back boxes and speaker companies that include a back box on their in ceiling speaker. Either way works really good and better then open back. I see you purchased a Pioneer Elite SC -25 , this is a fantastic receiver and can power most high quality speakers with ease in medium to large size rooms.


Good luck with your home theater and if you have any questions feel free to ask.

 

[bluewaves]

You might also look at the Speakercraft TIME series speakers, these will extend from the ceiling when in use and point directly at the listening area, make sure you get in ceiling speakers where at least the tweeter can pivot towards the listening area, better yet are speaker where the whole speaker can pivot towards the listening area, I have seen some good in ceiling setups but they take more time and money to get right than an in wall or traditional type speaker setup do. but it can be done.

 

[mjg100]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis10 /forum/post/18201922


I'm a huge fan of Living spaces theater with all in ceiling speakers and even in wall in floor in cabinet type sub woofers.


Using poor placement and poor quality speakers no matter if they are free standing or otherwise will never give you good sound. So if they are placed properly in the ceiling for your seating ,then you can have a excellent experience and I would challenge anyone who thinks other wise. I will go as far as to say whoever don't think all in the wall or ceiling can't work has not heard a system properly setup.


I don't know about these Proficient brand speakers. I have never used them myself but I can give you a list of brands I know work wonders. I'll try to stay in a reasonable budget and I'll throw in a few expensive but worth it brands.


1) Paradigm- this company makes extremely good in ceiling speakers as well as in wall subs. They have amiable models that can impress most audiophile level people for a beautiful home theater experience. I have Installed them many times and never once had a disappointed customer.


2) Definitive Technology-dynamic dynamic dynamic. There in ceiling in wall speakers for theater are some of the best I've Installed at any price. So damn impressive even for music playback.


3)polk audio- affordable choice for someone who wants a lot and don't have a lot of money. They do however offer a full THX ULTRA series speaker package in wall thats out of this world for theater. I did a full RTS systems a few years ago and it blew me away. WOW , they are based off their LSI line which is probably one of the best affordable audiophile sounding speakers on the planet.


4) B&W- most will bash , put down , tell you to stay away due to over pricing blah blah blah . I say forget the haters and experience B&W for yourself. B&W in ceiling speakers are simply breath taking. you don't expect the level of performance you hear when listening. They really sound fantastic especially for surrounds. Man I installed my first full in ceiling B&W / Rotel system way back in 2002. This system I was a little pissed that the customer turned down a full floor standing and on wall hung speaker package that he really liked due to his wife didn't want all those speakers all over her (not his) room. She loved the idea all the speakers(except the sub which we hid) could go into the ceiling. So when I went out to do the Install , I spec'd the best placement possible which actually was more accurate to spec then free standing. The ceiling offered better placement then the room walls and floor offered due to room design and seating placement.

When the job was fully installed and calibrated I was not prepared for the experience I was about to have. The customer and myself where sitting on the couch just laughing out loud on how damn good his new system sounded. We ran clip after clip of his favorite movies and never once was let down. We used 2 subs for room covering bass and man I was so impressed. From that day I never clowned in ceiling speakers for theater ever again.

I was a picky you can only use on wall and free standing speakers for music and theater but after I experienced B&W in ceiling theater , that all changed.


Triad- expensive but worth every single penny. Probably arguably the very best theater speakers money can buy. I have no words other then go to a dealer with a dedicated theater properly setup and calibrated and hold on to your seat. You can explain afterwards your experience. Not many speakers in the world can perform as good or better then Triad.


Klipsch- Like Definitive Technology Dynamic range has no limits here. Klipsch is probably even better for dynamics. Theater in ceiling experience from Klipsch is very high quality and very commercial theater like sound. They know how to do it and they do it right. I'm not the biggest fan for music experience as they tend to wear me down after a while due to the horns , I prefer a speaker thats more calm or soft if you will for music . I like for the most part calm music like Jazz , Celtic female laid back easy listening music. Klipsch speakers for me can't satisfy me here. But Rock music anything up beat and especially theater I love them to death. Just watch movies like Twister , Matrix , Star Wars , Gladiator , Spiderman etc and you will experience them for the first time again. When Darth maul and Obi wan fight with Light sabers , when they clash , you feel like they are in your room and you get a chill up your spine. It's actually a little scary and exciting the first time you experience this. I was shocked my first time and fell in love.


So basically I suggest talking to your installer about better higher quality speakers. Back boxes are a way to improve a in ceiling speaker. There are companies that make back boxes and speaker companies that include a back box on their in ceiling speaker. Either way works really good and better then open back. I see you purchased a Pioneer Elite SC -25 , this is a fantastic receiver and can power most high quality speakers with ease in medium to large size rooms.


Good luck with your home theater and if you have any questions feel free to ask.

I agree with you that you can get a nice system using in-wall speakers, but in-ceiling speakers are a huge compromise. I guess it depends on what level you consider a good HT experience. I have one system that uses these in-walls for mains and surrounds: www.rbhsound.com/si760.shtml so I know what good in-wall sound like. For HT even these do not compare to my stand alone speakers for HT use. http://jtrspeakers.com/install/triple-8/


The placement of sound will be all wrong with in-ceiling speakers. 100hz and up is easily localized.


Added

An in-ceiling system can work if you are talking about using a plasma tv that is mounted over a fireplace, but even then you would need to spend a lot of money to get good in-ceiling speakers. There are only a few decent in-ceiling speakers.

 

[craig john]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis10 /forum/post/18201922


I'm a huge fan of Living spaces theater with all in ceiling speakers and even in wall in floor in cabinet type sub woofers.


Using poor placement and poor quality speakers no matter if they are free standing or otherwise will never give you good sound. So if they are placed properly in the ceiling for your seating ,then you can have a excellent experience and I would challenge anyone who thinks other wise. I will go as far as to say whoever don't think all in the wall or ceiling can't work has not heard a system properly setup.

I'll take that challenge! Since you're in PA, I'll invite you to come to my house and hear my system, which consists of speakers properly placed behind an Acoustically Transparent screen, and surrounds properly placed according to the Dolby website's 7.1 Speaker Placement Guide:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/setup/...ide/index.html


Then I will travel anywhere within reason, (including PA, NJ, DE, MD) to hear an in-ceiling setup that sounds as good, images as good and locks the audio with the video as well. If you can show me such a system, I will gladly come back to this thread and state publicly that you have done so. Furthermore, I will, from that point forward, agree to recommend that system to future posters with questions about in-ceiling speaker systems.


In the meantime, I will continue to maintain that an all-in-ceiling speaker system is a huge compromise for Home Theater applications and should be avoided whenever possible.


Craig

 

[mjg100]



Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john /forum/post/18205469


I'll take that challenge! Since you're in PA, I'll invite you to come to my house and hear my system, which consists of speakers properly placed behind an Acoustically Transparent screen, and surrounds properly placed according to the Dolby website's 7.1 Speaker Placement Guide:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/setup/...ide/index.html


Then I will travel anywhere within reason, (including PA, NJ, DE, MD) to hear an in-ceiling setup that sounds as good, images as good and locks the audio with the video as well. If you can show me such a system, I will gladly come back to this thread and state publicly that you have done so. Furthermore, I will, from that point forward, agree to recommend that system to future posters with questions about in-ceiling speaker systems.


In the meantime, I will continue to maintain that an all-in-ceiling speaker system is a huge compromise for Home Theater applications and should be avoided whenever possible.


Craig

I agree. I have only seen one or two in-ceiling speakers that I thought were good speakers, but no matter how good they are they can't overcome the imaging problem of speakers located in the wrong place.

 

[cdy2179]



Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john /forum/post/18205469


I'll take that challenge! Since you're in PA, I'll invite you to come to my house and hear my system, which consists of speakers properly placed behind an Acoustically Transparent screen, and surrounds properly placed according to the Dolby website's 7.1 Speaker Placement Guide:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/setup/...ide/index.html


Then I will travel anywhere within reason, (including PA, NJ, DE, MD) to hear an in-ceiling setup that sounds as good, images as good and locks the audio with the video as well. If you can show me such a system, I will gladly come back to this thread and state publicly that you have done so. Furthermore, I will, from that point forward, agree to recommend that system to future posters with questions about in-ceiling speaker systems.


In the meantime, I will continue to maintain that an all-in-ceiling speaker system is a huge compromise for Home Theater applications and should be avoided whenever possible.


Craig

There's no arguing this... to spend you're money on ceiling speakers for a home theater makes absolutely no sense at all.. you'll have a listening room and a Home theater wanna-be... proper location is pretty straight forward and the laws of sound waves can't be changed!


I'ts just wrong...Unless of course your tv is mounted on the ceiling between the speakers and you lay on the floor to watch it

 

[pizzakid13]

i am glad this thread came up. so much comes down to the kind of room you are making and how much you want to spend. i am sure there are people in this thread who spent tens of thousands on equipment and others maybe a few grand at most.


i had 6.5 in-ceiling B&Ws in my last house which was new construction as well. built in 2001. i paired them with a denon 3801 receiver and a PSB sub since the B&W was waaaaaaaaaay too expensive. the speakers were not cheap but the sound was excellent. i chose them over the comparable speakercrafts because of the warmer sound.


now, this is a family room setup and not a true home theater with movie seats and a popcorn maker etc. in fact, i dont watch that many movies compared to most people here but i do enjoy a lot of music as well as great overall sound for tv. a lot of hockey and football. whenever i had people over, they loved the sound. great movies like matrix, gladiator or house of flying daggers sounded amazing.


i had my B&W's installed professionally and they used the adjustable tweeters to create a sweetspot for tv viewing. i loved it. all stealth, no friggin wires!


now i am setting up a new family room by gutting it and pre-wiring for more in-ceiling speakers. problem is that i left those B&Ws in my old house across the country and cant get them until october. so i have to install these cheapo infinitys http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Home-.../dp/B0000TIMV0 in the spots. the center channel does not have mounting holes! so i thought i'd pick up a center channel for the time being. any ideas?