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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am currently using an M&K V-125(125 watts) in a pretty large volume space (approximately 8000 cubic feet including adjacent kitchen and dining room). It sounds pretty good, but I don't really feel any slam like others mention using SVS, Hsu, etc. If I were to purchase the new SVS PB2-Plus for example, would I see a big difference over the M&K?
 

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You will have greater frequency extension with the PB2 (vs. the v-125).

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Even if I listen at normal volumes, say 75-80dB
Soundtracks are not at one volume level (75-80dB) so I don't know what you're saying. The average soundtrack (with system calibrated to reference levels) will play at 60-80dB with the exception of a few peaks (which can approach the Dolby Digital limit of 105dB for the mains and 115dB for the sub). If this is how your system is set up then you will definitely benefit from a better sub (like the SVS).
 

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In my opinion,...a good sub (SVS, HSU) is the missing link in most systems. You will be totally amazed how your set up will sound with a properly calibrated qualit sub.


I went from a Paradigm PDR-10 (thinking it sounded pretty good) to an SVS 20-39PC+ and let me tell you there is NO contest between the two. Easily the best money I ever spent on my HT system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks guys. This is the info I was looking for. Greg, you did a great job interpreting what I didn't explain very well. The V-125 sounds very good with both music and movies most of the time, but it just doesn't seem to have the juice when the bass ventures into the higher sound levels(explosions, pipe organs, etc.). So the next question. Out of the following three, which sub would you guys recommend with a Marantz SR-18/NHT Superone Surround set-up being used 50% for music and 50% for movies:


M&K MX-5000THX MKII (used)

SVS PB2-Plus

SVS 20-39PC+
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Cooper0103
In my opinion,...a good sub (SVS, HSU) is the missing link in most systems. You will be totally amazed how your set up will sound with a properly calibrated qualit sub.


I went from a Paradigm PDR-10 (thinking it sounded pretty good) to an SVS 20-39PC+ and let me tell you there is NO contest between the two. Easily the best money I ever spent on my HT system.


makes sense when they cost over twice as much.


t.schwartz, you're going to spend for amazing bass. but, if that's what you want then that's what you want. for some people this process is almost neverending. sooner or later, you'll be going with a sunfire
 

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"sooner or later, you'll be going with a sunfire"


You know, I bought a SVS 16-46PC+ (less than $900 shipped) to replace my Sunfire True Sub MkII (I paid app. $1300 + tax for it 5 years ago). There is absolutely NO comparison...
 

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"Would I see a big difference over the M&K?"


Does Jiff make peanut butter?! You have know idea what you are missing. A powerful sub can give a a HT system new life! So what are you waiting for go for it.
 

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If I were to purchase the new SVS PB2-Plus for example, would I see a big difference over the M&K?



Firstly the SVS 20-39CS should/would be a massive upgrade from your present subwoofer for the following reasons.For comparison, the M&K 125 reaches 105db in the 25-63hz range, according to Tom Nuisanes performance charts, compared to 109.5db with the SVS 20-39CS, all parameters being equal.The SVS driver had not been upgraded prior to the review, which has a noticeable effect on improved headroom, more or less 3db of increased output.


Keep in mind, that the SVS driver was still from the old batch, figuring the additional 3db of clean output.So, in light of this information, the 20-39CS has slightly more than twice the clean output of the M&K, with lower distortion levels.


Now the PB2-Plus has been described as achieving almost duel SVS Ultra performance.In other words 5-6X the clean output of the M&K 125.Now whether the improvement will be worthwhile depends on the listening conditions, and the volume levels that you will prefer.The most important element is headroom and clean output at any given lvl, all of which will be greatly improved with the upgrade.


If however you simply listen at moderate volume lvls, then the upgrade in the absolute sense would be non-beneficial.I would recommend the 20-39CS or Pci, as either would provide a massive increase in clean output to your present sub, as well as extending lower with greater authority.Much cheaper as well, about $600 for the Pci(not entirely sure).

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So the next question. Out of the following three, which sub would you guys recommend with a Marantz SR-18/NHT Superone Surround set-up being used 50% for music and 50% for movies:



Again, it depends on whether you need reference lvl bass(115db if speakers 'large', 121db if 'small'), or if you wish to attempt reference lvl output, it all comes down to your listening lvls.The M&K 5000thx ultra is a good performer but not amazing in comparison with your other three considerations.WSR Issue, measured 96db at 20hz, with no distortion limits, they simply cranked the volume with no considerations for power compression, THD measured levels or changes in tonal character, simply an SPL fest.


The 20-39pci(new batch) should equal or slightly outperform the 5000, the PB2-plus should be 3-4 5000thx subwoofers with regards to prelimary data specs(and used with proven tests with/against other M&K models in relation to SVS models).On a side not, the B4+ should produce almost 2x the clean output of the PB2+ from prelimary specs and by Tom V's comments, scary stuff.The Everast should produce even more high output lvls, and is very scary indeed.

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t.schwartz, you're going to spend for amazing bass. but, if that's what you want then that's what you want. for some people this process is almost neverending. sooner or later, you'll be going with a sunfire



I'm not sure what you were attempting to say, as your statement was a bit incoherent.In any case, the sunfire should not even be considered in light of the choices that are considered for obvious reasons, however i sense a shread of humour on your part.For the uninitiated, the Sunfire Signiture(reference model) cannot even reach 105db at 20hz in a moderately sized room, even when distortion lvls was not measured, however it can achieve 100db at 20hz(albiet with high power compression lvls and driver irregularities or irregular driver motion).The result of using twin 10" drivers in a 13" cube.


p.s I hope that was a joke.


Regards
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Well if I'm going to upgrade, I want to make sure this is the last sub I need to get. I spent $750 on the M&K 5 years ago, now if i sell it, I'll only get a small portion of that back. If I get anything it will be a 20-39PC+ or better. To be honest, if I'm going to spend $825 on a PC+, I'd rather give the extra $375 with the PB2 and be absolutely, positively sure that no matter how large any future listening space may be, I'm covered. This brings me to a new question, with the new PB2 out why would someone buy a CS-Ultra?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Forgot to ask, can you have a sub with too much power? Wouldn't a sub with huge power reserves just produce what it's supposed to? No more and no less.
 

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if you want a upgrade proof sub take a look at the vmps large sub.

its a passive sub so you add the amp of your choice.

also can be run in stereo-
 

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To answer the original question......a more powerful sub?NO. a better sub? YES. There have been a handful of excellent subs mentioned in this thread, but your concern is having "slam", but you also mentioned that you don't listen very loud. Unless you listen loud, you won't necessarily have that "slam". When listening at moderate levels, you want an accurate sub(at all levels, but you know what I mean). Just think of a lower end receiver that has the "loudness" button....that's why it's there....we(humans) don't hear deep bass at low volumes as well as we hear midrange/treble.


While I can name a dozen great subs, most of them wouldn't be suited to someone that isn't going to use them to their potential....if you want an improvement, look for a highly accurate sub(no subs with seemingly one note bass). You are not concerned with reaching deafening levels, so why pay for it?


-Craig
 

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Quote:
This brings me to a new question, with the new PB2 out why would someone buy a CS-Ultra?
Dual Ultras have slightly better performance vs. the PB2. To some people the extra performance is worth the $$$.

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Forgot to ask, can you have a sub with too much power? Wouldn't a sub with huge power reserves just produce what it's supposed to? No more and no less.
No, a system that is overpowered would be capable of driving the speaker beyond it's mechanical or electrical limits. If you drive it beyond the mechanical limits you'll hear a knocking sound (the cone hitting the basket). If you pass the electrical limits you'll fry your voice coil. Either way you can cause damage to your sub. The good news is that you can only cause damage if you're volume settings are too high for the system. For example, I drove my main speakers (140W max) with a crown K2 (800W per ch). As long as I listened at reasonable levels (reference level and below for my situation), there wasn't a problem. Had I turned up the volume to extreme levels I could have easily destroyed the driver. Most commercial subs have built in limiters to prevent this problem. However it limits extreme performance so some companies (like SVS) choose to not include it and have the owner adjust the settings to prevent over driving.


Note that certain sub designs require more power (you can trade enclosure volume for amp power). This means you can't compare brand A and B and say that A is better because it has more power (the driver, enclosure size and enclosure type play a large role)...
 

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Well if I'm going to upgrade, I want to make sure this is the last sub I need to get
Dream on!

If you have such a large room,then prepared to have more then one of those babies.

I'm serious!

8000^ft is a huge space to fill with bass.

Now if you don't listen at reference levels[LFE 115db peaks,121db peaks if all speakers set to small],then it's not a big concern,but if you do 1 of those PB2's will run out of headroom quickly.

I would dump the M&K and get at least 2 of the SVSes,or there are other choices out there that my suit you.

contact Acoustic-visions,Kyle can set you up with something I'm sure.
 

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Quote:
To answer the original question......a more powerful sub?NO. a better sub? YES
Define *better*.Some consider *better* as achieving greater clean output, others need deeper bass extention etc..Different priorities for different people.

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Dual Ultras have slightly better performance vs. the PB2.
Duel Ultra's should provide a 2-3db clean output advantage over the PB2, impressive performance.With regards to the Ultra, it wasn't designed to be a performance upgrade per se, more gain that little edge, to provide 1.5-2db increase compared to the PC+/CS+ range, and it's not logical in spending the extra cash in a $$/per db perspective.


If you have such a large room,then prepared to have more then one of those babies

I'm serious!
Twin PB2+ should provide reference lvl in your considered size room.Even at lower listening lvls, the advantage of clean output at any given level still brings good advantages, lowering distortion figures and preserving dynamic headroom.Might you consider an IB(infinite baffel), as it would provide you with the clearest sounding bass, and would be extremely cost effective, not to mention with regards to output, using multiple high excursion drivers would seem logical.


If you need a world class IB, use 4 Tempest in a manafold array(or line array), provide 150-200watts to each Tempest, and your jaw will be hanging.


If you need any advice, then simply ask me and i'll be glad to answer you.


Regards
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Well I did some testing with Avia and the M&K V-125 hits 94 dB @ 25Hz and rapidly drops off to 84dB @ 20Hz in my room. This was done at the +5 dB over reference level on my Marantz SR-18. I wanted to make sure I was asking for everything the V-125 could deliver. The SR-18 has an 80 Hz THX crossover for the LFE so no other channels should have had any affect on these results. So to answer your question goneten, I guess I'm looking for deeper extension, which I assume any of these SVS units could deliver.
 

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High-end Velodynes, Genesis, NHT or similar sealed and/or servo subs will give you a better ratio of quality and extension to volume than the typical theater subs listed here. But it may depend on your age. Seems like the youngin's here like earth shaking SPLs more than precision, accuracy and transient response. I'll be 40 this year, so I guess I'm just to old to appreciate my chest being compressed by bass. It's more likely to be compressed by someone trying to revive me :)
 
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