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Which HDR Formats will be supported by your next equipment purchase


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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This will probably take at least five or more years to play out.

I don’t believe that Samsung and Panasonic can prevail in their desire to avoid adapting Dolby Vison. I don’t believe that this a battle like HD DVD vs Blu-ray was (Winner take all).Even when Samsung and Panasonic at some point in the future add Dolby Vision, HDR10+ content will still be produced.

The HD DVD vs Blu-ray dust up was decided by the Big Boys/Powers That Be. I believe that we consumers will have a much bigger impact on the outcome of what the manufactures support for our HDR preferences for 4K Blu-rays and Streaming.I am not including Broadcasting because those choices will be made by the Powers That Be.

“So how come we consumers get to decide the HDR that Samsung and Panasonic supports” you ask? Excellent question.You might have noticed that I did not include Fox Studios in the original axis of evil.(Just kidding).Because we consumers have very little influence on Fox.They have exclusive product and no competition for that product.

Now Samsung and Panasonic are different. They have a lot of competition for their Displays and Players. So the other brands that consumers buy in sufficient quantity will impact their bottom line.Remember “Curved Screens” vs “Flat Screens” was decided by our buying choices. (at least in the US).The most direct and first impact will be on players because their numbers are so small compared to displays..Because HDR10+ is “Open Standard” it will be adopted on the Dolby Vision Players and Displays.I believe that LG has committed itself to supporting all major HDR formats.

I would think that most members would want to take advantage of the dynamic metadata that is on the disks we buy or movies we stream, but this poll will tell the tell.

After your vote please give a little comment on your vote.


Perhaps you are undecided at this time. Since there is no option for "Undecided", just state that in a post. Then once you've decided, cast your vote for your HDR choices.

 
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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Undecided

I voted for HDR10/HDR10+/Dolby Vision. I want to see the best picture that I can on every 4K Blu-ray.
________________________________________________________________


I will keep track of the Total Undecided: 1


If you posted undecided then post when you have made your decision and have voted.


 

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I voted for HDR10/HDR10+/Dolby Vision, and also more, HEVC HLG HDR/VP9-HLG YouTube HDR/VP9-PQ YouTube HDR/Technicolor HDR (if this later will become operational).
A playback device, TV or audio-video receiver, should be able to playback any content.
It is content that matters most for consumers, not content format.


Consumers should push for universal HDR TV in the same way audio/video receivers have universal support for audio formats (Dolby Digital / DTS / Dolby Atmos / DTS:X / …).
Thus, it doesn’t matter what HDR format a given program uses; a TV that implements all formats can accommodate the content and display it to its best advantage.

Furthermore, coexistence of different HDR formats within a TV is technically possible, because HDR formats are just software (decoding / mapping software) at the TV level and modern TV are compuTV (computer + TV).
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-high-dynamic-range-hdr-wide-color-gamut-wcg/2627409-universal-hdr-compliant-displays-4.html#post50302361
And software development is much easier and faster on HDR TV’s modern operating systems than on rigid and complex DSP platforms of audio/video receiver.


There is a precedent.
There was a NTSC-PAL-SECAM color system TV war.
https://books.google.fr/books?id=xfIBAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=colour+tv+war&source=bl&ots=auu6xj02ON&sig=VnegAqp2-udc9zvAvlc_YB3WnNE&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiy9IW7q4HWAhWsD8AKHeZiDMcQ6AEIfTAQ#v=onepage&q=colour tv war&f=false



But in the end, we have NTSC/PAL/SECAM multi-system TV, because the TV manufacturer’s business logic is to meet the consumer requirements and to sell TV which allow consumers to be able to take advantage of any content they want.

In France for example, at the beginning of the color TV war, French people were happy with their SECAM TV, which is incompatible with a PAL content or with a NTSC content, like a HDR10 TV is incompatible with a Dolby Vision content streamed on Vudu.
Then there were people who wanted also to enjoy PAL DVD and required PAL/SECAM TV.
Then there were people who wanted also to take advantage of NTSC DVD and required NTSC/PAL/SECAM TV.

Many latest TV for the U.S. market are NTSC/PAL/SECAM multi-system TV like:
. 77" LG OLED77W7P
https://www.displayspecifications.com/fr/model/309e94d
. 75" Sony XBR-75Z9D
https://www.displayspecifications.com/fr/model/977161b
. 75" Samsung QN75Q9F
https://www.displayspecifications.com/fr/model/e648b0a


For the moment, high-end TV manufacturers should commit to support all operational and being standardized (i.e. via committed upgrade) HDR formats.

A Dolby Vision compliant TV can be upgraded to HDR10+: Dolby Vision is currently the most complex HDR format due to its dynamic metadata display adaptation and its 12-bit dual layer architecture. Therefore, if a TV System-on a-Chip is powerful enough to support Dolby Vision, this TV SoC is able to support any other HEVC HDR format.
 

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All we actually need are TVs that match the peak nits levels of the grading display and there is then no need for any metadata...

Steve
 

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True, but not that high a percentage.
And home TVs will match that in the near future.
(As both use the same technology there is no reason for them to not match peak luma capabilities.)

Steve
 

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True, but not that high a percentage.
And home TVs will match that in the near future.
(As both use the same technology there is no reason for them to not match peak luma capabilities.)

Steve
So how does the display know to just output 3000 nits instead of to peak, does grading a film go back to being similar to SDR?

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PQ is an absolute standard.
So the material defines what the peak is - no metadata needed.
If the display can go higher it will just 'stop' at the peak of the source footage.

Steve
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Didn't Think There Was An HDR TV Format War? There Is Now

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2017/09/06/didnt-think-there-was-an-hdr-tv-format-war-there-is-now/#5f96a31914da


“Part of this situation holds true with HDR10+, of course. Like Dolby Vision, the extra scene by scene data introduced by HDR10+ sits on top of an HDR10 core that people will still be able to watch if their TV or 4K Blu-ray player doesn’t support HDR10+. That, though, is where the similarities between the Dolby Vision/HDR10 and Dolby Vision/HDR10+ situations end, leaving us staring at four key reasons why a new format war really is now underway.

1 - The expansion at IFA of HDR10+ beyond just being ‘a Samsung thing’ instantly shifts the HDR goalposts to a place where I believe the HDR10 industry standard will soon no longer be seen as adequate.
Following the IFA announcements, pretty much every hardware and film studio has now professed support for one dynamic metadata HDR format or the other, tacitly recognizing - and, crucially, demonstrating - the dynamic technology’s ability to deliver a better picture performance than standard HDR10. And once you’ve let that cat out of the bag on an industry-wide scale, there’s no putting it back.

As a result of all these issues, consumers will quickly start to expect ‘dynamic metadata’ HDR as standard. And once they do, the old ‘HDR10 is good enough, Dolby Vision is just a luxury extra’ argument for there being no format war evaporates. Instead people will be faced with a stark choice between two incompatible dynamic HDR formats.

2 - At the time of writing it appears that content creators will only back either Dolby Vision or HDR10+, not both.

Certainly Fox’s willingness to join an actual HDR10+ Alliance makes it look extremely unlikely that it will also support Dolby Vision (even though it has delivered films in the Dolby Cinema format for commercial theaters). Especially as Fox implied at an HDR10+ meeting at IFA that not wanting to pay Dolby its Dolby Vision licensing fee was at least one factor in its decision to support the royalty-free HDR10+ format.

It seems unlikely, too, that any film studio would want to invest the time and, therefore, money in mastering the same film title in two separate dynamic metadata HDR formats.

If Fox does indeed support HDR10+ only when most other studios have previously declared themselves for Dolby Vision, then we will find ourselves in a situation where some films are only available in the HDR10+ dynamic metadata format while others are only available - for now, anyway - in the Dolby Vision dynamic metadata format. And the moment you’ve got films that can only be bought in one video format or another, not both, then you’re firmly into format war territory.

3 - When it comes to 4K Blu-ray, even if a studio wanted to take a neutral stance with regard to dynamic metadata HDR and offer both Dolby Vision and HDR10+, it will likely struggle to actually fit both formats onto a single disc. This was confirmed to me by industry HDR consultant Florian Friedrich at IFA. This issue isn’t being helped by apparent ongoing issues with effectively and efficiently manufacturing ultra high capacity 100GB ‘triple layer’ 4K Blu-ray discs.

4 - If the films studios aren’t likely to make the same movies available in both HDR10+ and Dolby Vision, then maybe the hardware makers can provide universal playback on their TVs and 4K Blu-ray players?
Both those formats still died a slow death, unfortunately - partly because, I suspect, even a whiff of a format war, however short-lived, can decimate a technology’s chances. But yep, if all the TVs and 4K Blu-ray players at this January’s CES offer support for both Dolby Vision and HDR10+, then great; the AV industry will at least have done its best to assuage consumer concerns.
Sadly, though, I don’t see this happening. It’s possible one or two TV brands might take a universal HDR playback approach, but it seems extremely unlikely that every brand will be so open minded.
For starters, Samsung has essentially created the royalty-free HDR10+ platform in direct opposition to Dolby Vision, so that its own AV products and those of other similarly minded brands can provide dynamic metadata HDR support without having to pay Dolby for the privilege. Going to such lengths to avoid paying Dolby a buck makes it almost inconceivable that Samsung will add Dolby Vision support to its TVs and 4K Blu-ray players any time soon.

In other words, the resistance of two of the TV world’s biggest brands to Dolby Vision isn’t purely financial; it seems to be philosophical as well.

Of course, it’s always possible that Panasonic and Samsung will do a U-turn and add Dolby Vision in future TV hardware generations if it looks like not supporting Dolby’s format is really hitting their sales. But I think they’ll give themselves a pretty long run at the HDR10+ only route before making such a pluralistic move.

The issue of firmware updates is also an element in the new HDR format war. Florian Friedrich and Samsung both confirmed that while it’s technically possible to firmware update some current TVs for HDR10+, only a few models will have enough ‘brain power’ to handle it. For instance, while all of Samsung’s 2017 and most if not all of its 2016 HDR TVs will support HDR10+, the HDR10+ update can only be applied to Panasonic’s ‘4K Pro’ models - essentially its EX750 LCD TVs and its EZ950 and EZ1000 OLEDs. And nobody has a clue yet about whether HDR10+ can be added to other TV brands via firmware.”

Thus this poll. Also interesting about the difficulties of Dolby Vision and HDR10+ being on the same disk.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Support for both Dolby Vision and HDR10+

https://www.broadwayworld.com/bwwgeeks/article/Colorfront-Ships-Transkoder-2017-And-New-Deployments-Reinforce-Market-leading-Reputation-20170914

Colorfront Ships Transkoder 2017 And New Deployments Reinforce Market-leading Reputation

Amazon, Samsung & Panasonic: Colorfront is working closely with Amazon, Samsung and Panasonic to ensure the readiness of Dynamic Tone Mapping, with dynamic metadata, for the new HDR10+ standard. Customers are already using Transkoder 2017 to deliver shows to Amazon in HDR10+, guaranteeingunparalleled HDR viewing experiences across the 2017 ranges of Samsung and Panasonic UHD TVs.
Dolby Vision & Dolby Cinema: Colorfront Transkoder was certified by Dolby Laboratories for the creation of Dolby Atmos Digital Cinema Packages (DCPs) in 2015. Now, Transkoder has additionally been certified for Dolby Vision Mastering and Mezzanine packaging and playback of UHD, HDR and Wide Color Gamut (WCG) content.

Transkoder supports Dolby Vision's 10,000 nits peak brightness target, 12-bit color depth and Rec.2020 color space standards. Via integrated Dolby Vision processing Transkoder can preview mapping content with light level metadata to a given reference display. It can also drive an external Dolby Content Mapping Unit (CMU), calculate the required light level statistics, and render and playback Dolby UHD IMF mezzanine format with per-frame metadata.
 

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At this point, I don't even care. Even as all this was playing out, I decided to buy a 1080p SDR projector. I expect to replace my projector in 7-10 years. I may replace my TVs with 4K HDR models when they die, but no rush right now. If they last another 5 years, then great! Bucks saved.

My main concern now is audio tracks. I value Dolby Atmos more than I value HDR, even though I see the great benefits HDR can provide. So I do have a UHD Blu-ray player, but the only reason for it is so that I can get Dolby Atmos.

Furthermore, I don't give a chit about HDMI 2.1, cuz well I just upgraded my two main receivers to HDMI 2.0a models with Dolby Atmos. I am not going to replace these any time soon. Probably not for over a decade. I keep my stuff a long time when possible. My previous receivers didn't even do TrueHD.

If I really had to choose, it would be HDR10 & Dolby Vision, just because the streaming sites seem to be supporting those. And in fact, at one point I said I wouldn't buy any new hardware until it supported both of those, but in the end I decided it was just a waste of time to fret about it and I bought a display device with neither, and a Blu-ray player with just HDR10... the latter part I don't use anyway.

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BTW, I am usually the earliest or else 2nd earliest adopter of anyone I know personally when it comes to this stuff. That means I'm probably the 1% for AV stuff in my circle of acquaintainces, family, and friends. What does that say about this market?

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I will add that much of this HDR implementation is really annoying me. Correct HDR to SDR downsampling is something I think that should have been built into the standard right from the outset, but it wasn't. Furthermore, the complexity that they have introduced with regards to DRM and audio support is a real turnoff.

Let me tell you some of the problems I've run into with my SDR 1080p display devices.

1) With 1080p Blu-ray discs, many studios refuse to put Dolby Atmos onto the discs, really for no good reason except for marketing.
2) So, to get Dolby Atmos you need to spend more and get a UHD disc in a UHD player, but the annoying part is that HDR to SDR downconversion can be a total mess. For my first UHD player all the colours were washed out and frankly it was not calibratable for us mere mortals so I had to return it. I ended up getting a Panasonic that does a good job of it... but still not as good in some cases as just buying the appropriate 1080p Blu-ray disc... which doesn't have the Dolby Atmos track.
3) Netflix on these UHD players is often borked by the HDCP 2.2 handshaking. On both UHD players I've owned, I could NOT watch Netflix at all. Not even at 1080p. The app refuses to launch, even for 1080p SDR playback. I actually had to go out and buy an HDCP 2.2 defeater just to be able to watch Netflix 1080p with h.264 SDR. No, I don't even get 4K h.265 HEVC downsampled to 1080p, just the usual 1080p SDR streams, despite the fact Netflix on these units demands HDCP 2.2.

No wonder mainstream consumers are confused.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Looks like you are undecided at this time

...but in the end I decided it was just a waste of time to fret about it and I bought a display device with neither...

No wonder mainstream consumers are confused.




4K is certainly a can of worms at this time.:frown:
Can I count you as undecided as far as the poll goes?
 

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4K is certainly a can of worms at this time.:frown:
Can I count you as undecided as far as the poll goes?
Well, my next purchase probably would HDR10 and Dolby Vision, if I were to buy soon, but considering the above, that next purchase could be 5 years from now.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Well, my next purchase probably would HDR10 and Dolby Vision, if I were to buy soon, but considering the above, that next purchase could be 5 years from now.


Well, I will count you as undecided as of this time. In 5 years, hopefully your main choice would be HDR10/HDR10+/Dolby Vision. I believe by that time most manufactures will support all three. I think that there will always be HDR10+ and Dolby Vision streaming content. A small possibility that 4K discs will only be Dolby Vision though.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
What is HDR10+? Samsung and Amazon are trying to win the TV war

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/what-is-hdr10-3294683


In short, it’s currently impossible to predict with any certainty how the new HDR format war is going to pan out. Though my personal hunch is that some TVs, at least, will start supporting all types of HDR – and that these may be rewarded with persuasively handsome sales figures.
 
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Looks like Samsung or Panasonic will never need to officially "join the dark side." Samsung are some slick MFers.

Ericsson also showed its Intelligent Tone Mapping technology which can convert between all the different flavours of HDR, in production, in transmission or in the viewer's home. We also heard the intriguing comment that "the advantage of HDR10+ is that it's not difficult to take the metadata from Dolby Vision and interpret it to HDR10+".
https://www.displaydaily.com/article/152-display-daily/55059-acronym-soup-at-ibc

Samsung getting closer to building that universal HDR compliant TV that @DanBa has been hoping for.
 

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I voted for all three systems which seems the most prudent at this time. Future proofing at least partially.
 
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