The HS51 claims 6000:1 and delivers 4000:1 at D65. So obviously the answer is yes if you believe the claim of 5X increase.
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Will Sony's recent LCD developments allow front projector LCDs to have a 10,000 CR?
Sony has developed the first HTPS LCD panel which uses a new inorganic alignement layer. This development along with Field Inversion Driving will allow the creation of LCDs with a contrast ratio 5 times higher than current LCDs. With a dynamic iris do you think this will allow for LCD front projectors to have a 10,000 CR?
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Lets assume current PJ's with Dynamic Iris OFF achieve CR levels in the 400 to 500 range at D65. If Sony's claims can be extrapolated to final Image output - and not knowing the tech as well as most on this forum I couldn't say for sure - then that provides 2K+ Frame CR. An Iris operating over 2 - 3 F stops should easily do 10K:1 Dynamic CR.
So since I have a vote, mine is yes.
ted
So since I have a vote, mine is yes.
ted
Intel did not abandon LCOS because they could not make it work.... they obviously used their insight into SONY developments and saw the short-term nature of any LCOS advantage. No long-term ROI, so kill the project.
I think 3LCD with the new SONY improvements will deliver 10,000 CR by XMAS 2007. Wont that be nice....
Dan
I think 3LCD with the new SONY improvements will deliver 10,000 CR by XMAS 2007. Wont that be nice....
Dan
I answered no for the near-term (2-3 years) achievements simply because they only way to get that kind of performance with any technology from them would be to deviate the white point well away from what the majority of Westerners usualy shoot for (6500K).
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Why? If you can get a flat 9300K, for instance, then you can just put a color filter on there (if they don't filter internally themselves). It doesn't preclude 6500K. Plus, just because the HS51 had some weird calibration doesn't mean everyone will. My SIM2 HT500 had a bad blue hump around 80 IRE, but it doesn't mean I will write off 3 chip DLP as not being able to get d65 from low IRE to 100 IRE.
--Darin
| Originally posted by TheFerret I answered no for the near-term (2-3 years) achievements simply because they only way to get that kind of performance with any technology from them would be to deviate the white point well away from what the majority of Westerners usualy shoot for (6500K). |
--Darin
I voted "no" because the impression I have from this forum is that the absolute contrast ratio is devastated by really small amounts of ambient light. One extra lumen in the room from some guy wearing a light shirt drops 10K to 5K. The bigger they are the farther they fall. Getting a real 10K to 1 ratio probably isn't possible in front projection (which is what this poll relates to).
"I voted "no" because the impression I have from this forum is that the absolute contrast ratio is devastated by really small amounts of ambient light."
Joe, the question applies to pj CR, not screen CR.
Joe, the question applies to pj CR, not screen CR.
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Is he going to be wearing a shirt with batteries? White walls, shirts, etc. have no effect for on/off CR unless there are light sources other than the images from the projector.
Trying standing in a dark room with no lights on and wear a white shirt. Can you see it? If so, there is a light source somewhere.
I think the assumption for this poll was also on/off CR, but I now notice that it wasn't made clear. Since ANSI CRs are really under 700:1 (and I don't think really needs improvement from there) and on/off CR is the only CR spec that most digitals even give I think the assumption that this 10k:1 is on/off is reasonable. BTW: I think I might start calling it the "Cop's Flashlight In Your Face/Buried Alive Ratio".
--Darin
| Originally posted by JHouse One extra lumen in the room from some guy wearing a light shirt drops 10K to 5K. |
Trying standing in a dark room with no lights on and wear a white shirt. Can you see it? If so, there is a light source somewhere.
I think the assumption for this poll was also on/off CR, but I now notice that it wasn't made clear. Since ANSI CRs are really under 700:1 (and I don't think really needs improvement from there) and on/off CR is the only CR spec that most digitals even give I think the assumption that this 10k:1 is on/off is reasonable. BTW: I think I might start calling it the "Cop's Flashlight In Your Face/Buried Alive Ratio".
--Darin
So why do we care about these huge on/off numbers if the real world conditions make them so irrelevant?
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They don't. Your real world conditions seem to, but mine sure don't. If I turn the projector off I can't see my screen. Just find a room in your house where you can have all the lots off (and no light coming in) and try it. Some of us think that movies should be able to reproduce that real world condition and some don't.
--Darin
| Originally posted by JHouse So why do we care about these huge on/off numbers if the real world conditions make them so irrelevant? |
--Darin
It's just the light walls and ceiling that kill me. However, with the High Power, even ambient moon light makes the screen glow in an eerie way even when you think it seems pitch black.
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That is ANSI CR. There are things that can be done there (like the Firehawk), but it is true that it takes dark walls to really maximize ANSI CR. However, CRTs don't have the best ANSI CR and so I think that even in a lighter room a digital with the right screen could match the ANSI CRs of those CRTs. ANSI CR affects the depths of the images and black in mixed scenes, but when it comes to the darkest scenes and most digitals, the light walls don't have nearly as much effect as the raised black floor from the projector (the low on/off CR).
Rear projection could also help ANSI CR in lighter rooms, but it isn't going to help on/off CR when there are no other light sources.
--Darin
| Originally posted by JHouse It's just the light walls and ceiling that kill me. |
Rear projection could also help ANSI CR in lighter rooms, but it isn't going to help on/off CR when there are no other light sources.
--Darin
So ANSI is really your pj's whitest white vs your pj's blackest black, in your room (with it's lights,walls, carpet, ceiling,windows, furnishings and occupants), on your screen at the particular time of day it is measured? Meaning, what you really can see when you are watching in those circumstances?
And 700 to 1 is the limit? And that's ok?
And 700 to 1 is the limit? And that's ok?
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No, ANSI CR is the ratio between the black and white squares in a 4x4 checkerboard. Since both white and black are up at once, washout from the room and from the projector from bright parts to dark parts come into play. The ANSI CR on the screen can be limited by the room because of these reflections. On/off CR is 100 IRE to 0 IRE, but the projector really should be calibrated (so it isn't technically the whitest white). Reflections don't matter for on/off CR because reflections of any percentage cancel each other out (1.20*Y / 1.20*X = Y / X). External ambient light is another matter, but that just affects image on/off CR, not projector on/off CR.
There is no set limit to how much ANSI CR can be on the screen, but my perception is that 700:1 is fine for a projector and I'm not sure I really care beyond that for ANSI CR (especially when dark and bright are split 50/50 like the ANSI CR test). We can only see so much range at once, but we can see billions to one across two different times (like the cop shining the light in your eyes and then getting buried alive). The limit for on/off CR is the same as for real life, infinite. Projectors can't do that (although CRTs arguable can), but the perception of infinite is all that matters. That just requires that when a blackout scene comes, you can't see anything.
Checking the darkest your room can go is easy. Just turn the projector off.
--Darin
| Originally posted by JHouse So ANSI is really your pj's whitest white vs your pj's blackest black, in your room (with it's lights,walls, carpet, ceiling,windows, furnishings and occupants), on your screen at the particular time of day it is measured? Meaning, what you really can see when you are watching in those circumstances? And 700 to 1 is the limit? And that's ok? |
There is no set limit to how much ANSI CR can be on the screen, but my perception is that 700:1 is fine for a projector and I'm not sure I really care beyond that for ANSI CR (especially when dark and bright are split 50/50 like the ANSI CR test). We can only see so much range at once, but we can see billions to one across two different times (like the cop shining the light in your eyes and then getting buried alive). The limit for on/off CR is the same as for real life, infinite. Projectors can't do that (although CRTs arguable can), but the perception of infinite is all that matters. That just requires that when a blackout scene comes, you can't see anything.
Checking the darkest your room can go is easy. Just turn the projector off.
--Darin
I understand about projecting the checkerboard, and those are the circumstances I was assuming. Presume the checkerboard is being projected, and then I think the intended meaning of my first paragraph may make more sense. I guess I could have thrown in "simultaneously".
Jhouse, on/off= show 100% white, get white value, thne show 100% black get black value
Ansi is what you would get if your are showing white and black in equal proportions.
Ansi cannot be as high as on/off because there is reflection from the rest of the room, it also shows the weakness (leackage) between pixels. Also Ansigives the middle value, in a black background with a few white pixels to mimick stars they will look white, and in a white background a few black dots will look black. Ansi just gives you an approximation of what you will get if you where in a mixed sceen with 50% of light output
Ansi is what you would get if your are showing white and black in equal proportions.
Ansi cannot be as high as on/off because there is reflection from the rest of the room, it also shows the weakness (leackage) between pixels. Also Ansigives the middle value, in a black background with a few white pixels to mimick stars they will look white, and in a white background a few black dots will look black. Ansi just gives you an approximation of what you will get if you where in a mixed sceen with 50% of light output
BTW I voted no, I don't see anything in the article that indicate 10k
I know people are saying Pany=2kx5=10k, but I don't think it is that simple I think the higher you go the harder it will be to tweak using a DI mechanism.
I know people are saying Pany=2kx5=10k, but I don't think it is that simple I think the higher you go the harder it will be to tweak using a DI mechanism.
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I still don't think it is right. It is just one instance where the chip is 50% off and 50% on. Let's say we have a projector that is uniform (every white reading came out the same and the same is true for every black) and no leakage (from one pixel to the other)
a) Ansi
b) 1 white, 1 black and the rest 50% off (grey)
c) 1 white , the rest black
d) 1 black, the rest white
you should get
d
| I understand about projecting the checkerboard, and those are the circumstances I was assuming. Presume the checkerboard is being projected, and then I think the intended meaning of my first paragraph may make more sense. I guess I could have thrown in "simultaneously". |
a) Ansi
b) 1 white, 1 black and the rest 50% off (grey)
c) 1 white , the rest black
d) 1 black, the rest white
you should get
d
PS
the limit as picture->black CR->on/off CR (never reaches)
the limit as picture->white CR->0 (never reaches)
the limit as picture->black CR->on/off CR (never reaches)
the limit as picture->white CR->0 (never reaches)
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