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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I keep getting nervous that my equipment is going to be obsolete if the MPAA gets their way and forces all HD content to go through digital connections or be forced to a lower def format. I understand that they want to protect their content and I am O.K. with that. Rather than implement a technology that will obsolete our investments, why don’t they just strike a deal with the consumer electronics manufactures not to make consumer equipment that will record component input feeds. They would only manufacture consumer recorders that record through whatever digital input standard they and the MPAA agree to. Such recorders/players could still have component outputs so they would work with legacy component equipment and our equipment investment would not be obsolete. This seems to me like a fair compromise, the investment in the most expensive equipment (projectors, CRTs, display devices) is protected. If you wanted to record you might have to purchase a new STB that supported the digital output but that is fairly low cost.


Am I missing something here?


Regards,



Brian
 

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The stated position of the industry is to not allow the consumer access to the HD analog signal. This is just in case the consumer grows a brain and figures out an easy way to record it. Or maybe to prevent some oportunistic innovator to invent a technology to record the signal.


It is interesting to note that there is pressure to apply the same copy protection technologies to computer video cards in the future (for something like, DVI). Clearly content providers understand the data processing power and capability of PC's (as in CD ripping and MP3 encoding). They want to nip digital video in the bud as soon as possible to prevent anything like Napster from happening in the HDTV world.


Rick

 

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Spotted a thread not long ago regarding Cablevision's plans to introduce Sony cable converters with digital firewire outputs. The encouraging news from management was that they were looking into methods of delivering HDTV from the converters so they wouldn't obsolete current owners of HDTV. -- John


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STOP DVI/HDCP AND DFAST
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by btmoore:
I keep getting nervous that my equipment is going to be obsolete if the MPAA gets their way and forces all HD content to go through digital connections or be forced to a lower def format.
The first agreements are apparently being signed today.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/SHOWBIZ/TV/0...eut/index.html


The only disagreement seems to be to encrypt over the air free TV or not. There is a significant chance that most HDTV equipment will be obsolete in the near future.
 

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Well, this shows that those of us who have been defending our position about the obsoleting of all our HDTV gear were NOT paranoid. Anybody interested in a Zenith 64" HDTV, 34" HD Paasonic Tau, RCA DTC 100, Sony HD100? Looks like they may all be on sale real soon.
 

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Also makes me think that all of those who sat on the sidelines and said "I'll wait", were a whole lot smarter than us!
 

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You know, it wouldn't be impossible to build a picture tube base connector to RGB output, I'm not one to rip off the content providers (don't own any records/tapes/DVDs I havet't purchased), but this little bit of hocus pocus deserves a counter attack.


If they try to encrypt OTA programming, it will be time to write a lot of senators.


Bob Smith
 

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This has always been a little confusing to me.


If the industry mass produces HDTV recorders that only work with firewire, then fine: if you want to use an HDTV recorder, you need a firewire set. If nobody in the industry mass produces analog recorders, then they will be prohibitively expensive and feature poor compared to the competition.


And, if the industry desires that cable and/or digital satellite to be encrypted into the set-top boxes, this is already happening.


Given the lack of cheap analog HDTV recorders, why would the industry turn off analog output from the set-top boxes into existing analog HDTV sets? I would think that piracy would be cost prohibitive when it comes to making a profit.


John
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Smith:
If they try to encrypt OTA programming, it will be time to write a lot of senators.
Why wait until then? It will be too late! Do it now! Here's a start: Letter to Congressman Tauzin


We can just substitute DVI/HDCP for copy protection in general and start a grass-roots campaign. Let's go people!


Remember that the squeaky wheel is the one that gets the grease.




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Vic Ruiz
STOP HDCP/DFAST/5C
 

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Back in the days when audio CDs were first introduced, the cost of equipment to rip audio as a data stream for recording on a computer was prohibitively expensive, and the thought that nearly perfect copies of the entire catalog of would be available for free on an easily accessable public network seemed pretty farfetched. Then Napster happened. Even though the record companies are making record profits, they are VERY scared of this technology. Just because the technology to record and distribute HDTV content isn't available (or is cost prohibitive) today, doesn't mean that it won't be mainstream technology 5 or 10 years down the road.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I am still trying to hash out the paranoia from the reality. DTLA and the C5 standard is focused on digital copy protection. What evidence is there that we are going to lose our analog components on STBs and display devices? It seems to make sense that they would make STB's with C5 firewire and component outputs, recording devices would only have c5 compliant inputs but could have component and c5 outputs and there is no reason that display devices couldn't have both component and c5 inputs. Or does someone have real evidence that component output is dead with C5. Is reality or paranoia?


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Brian
 

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They will have component outputs but they will only be 480i/480p. There is a provision to 'downrez' the analog output if a flag is set in the program stream. So you could only view HDTV at full resolution (1080i/720p) via the firewire/dvi output, and only 480i/480p via the component outputs.


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Vic Ruiz
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by vruiz:
They will have component outputs but they will only be 480i/480p. There is a provision to 'downrez' the analog output if a flag is set in the program stream. So you could only view HDTV at full resolution (1080i/720p) via the firewire/dvi output, and only 480i/480p via the component outputs.

Ok, where is that documented, what is the evidence? Why are we so convinced that 1080i will be dead via component output? You may be right, I don't know, I would just like to see some facts. There seems to be a lot of speculation around this, can someone provide some documentation or evidence proving this allegation?


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Brian
 

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Obviously, the various "industries" don't and won't have their act together for quite some time - they have differing needs and concerns, as we do. I don't think that any attempt to eliminate/cripple copy protection has a chance now, but it should be our right as consumers to have some type of definitive statement about what may be obsoleted by any CP scheme.

With a few "alarmist" letters to the editor, handouts at HDTV dealers, etc., HDTV purchases would slam to a halt. THAT may get some attention focused on this problem!
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by btmoore:
Ok, where is that documented, what is the evidence? Why are we so convinced that 1080i will be dead via component output? You may be right, I don't know, I would just like to see some facts. There seems to be a lot of speculation around this, can someone provide some documentation or evidence proving this allegation?


Regards,


Brian
If I am not mistaken (I have a Dish 6000) you can find that documentation by reading the box of a DTC-100. The last I heard it was right on the side of the box.
 

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BINGO! All STB's (except the Dish 6000) have similar disclaimers either on the box or in the manual. Look it up.


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Vic Ruiz
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Quote:
Originally posted by btmoore:
Ok, where is that documented, what is the evidence? Why are we so convinced that 1080i will be dead via component output? You may be right, I don't know, I would just like to see some facts. There seems to be a lot of speculation around this, can someone provide some documentation or evidence proving this allegation?


Regards,


Brian
This has been documented previously IN THIS FORUM. Do a search. This subject was covered quite intensly (understandable enough) a while back when the word about HDCP and 5C just started to spread.


Then the CONFIRMATION that the downrez bit exists WAS confirmed by credible sources. Again, search the forum, you will find all the proof you need minus speculation.


Rick

 

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I think you are mistaken suggesting that halting purchases of HDTV would be good thing for the anti-copy protection cause. I believe the opposite is true. The greater number of current HDTV sets are purchased, the less chance a new copy protected HDTV standard will be accepted.


Think about it. I'm sure the studios would love to change the DVD standard now as well, to tighten up its copy protection. But guess what. It's too late!


The more people that stop buying HDTVs because of this copy protection mess, the more likely the studios will get their way and the consumer will lose out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yes I have heard that STB can be set to down convert HD to SD if the broadcaster throws the switch. That could just be in there as a safety if piracy ever did get out of hand or a content provider refused to allow their IP to be broadcast in HD. But it still looks to me that it is pure speculation that we will lose our beloved 1080i component with the advent of C5. Is there something in the C5 agreement that states hd 1080i component output is forbidden to be provided? I looked at the dtcp site and I did not find anything. I have read some of the past discussion "IN THIS FORUM" but I was asking for facts not speculation on what evidence that with the adoption of C5 we will no longer be provide 1080i via component.


"Due to copyright restrictions, some receivers may not permit viewing of some high definition programs in high definition format." Taking this statement and making the assumption that our 1080i outputs with be downgraded with the advent of C5 is purely speculative. I can understand how one might make the transitive steps to come to this assumption, I ask again where are the facts. Where does it say the C5/dtcp/mpaa will require the death of 1080i component.


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Brian
 

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This is not an assumption. It is as clear as plain English! What part of "Due to copyright restrictions, some receivers may not permit viewing of some high definition programs in high definition format" do you not understand?


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Vic Ruiz
STOP HDCP/DFAST/5C


[This message has been edited by vruiz (edited 07-18-2001).]
 
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