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I'm not sure but I don't think so. I know that Corian is relatively soft and easy to cut and machine. But as Wilson says its X-material is extermely hard to process. I've seen the unfinished surface of the x-material when I opened the back of the MaxxII to see the crossovers and it didn't look like Corian to me. It's something synthetic probably with epoxy resin.
 

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It's similar, but not the same. They used to use Corian, I believe before moving on to this new material. Just a different, more rigid formulation using some different materials. Nothing exactly groundbreaking, but turning it into a speaker would be pretty difficult.
 

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Yes, they use to use Corian in the early Watts. They have now moved on to the X and M material developed at BYU
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffmac
Yes, they use to use Corian in the early Watts. They have now moved on to the X and M material developed at BYU
Precisely
 

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Hi


Just curious. Are the X and M two different compounds/materials? Are they proprietary? Does Wilson Audio have patent(s) on them (it)?
 

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I think it's a "secret sauce" thing. I don't think there's anything revolutionary or patentable, but it does appear to be a particular mix of the stuff for the desired properties and they probably simply asked some BYU engineering students to do it as a project, basically. Nothing wrong with that, if I'm correct, whatever works. But I think it's just their own formulation of resins. Corian, as I understand it, is simply a trademarked name for a particular formulation of BMC. I think you could copy it exactly, if you can determine the recipe, and sell it, as long as you don't call it Corian.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall
I think it's a "secret sauce" thing. I don't think there's anything revolutionary or patentable, but it does appear to be a particular mix of the stuff for the desired properties and they probably simply asked some BYU engineering students to do it as a project, basically.
Joel,


Composite materials is a very hot field - and of course one can patent a material one develops.


That's not how one goes about commissioning work at a university. You don't just

"ask some BYU engineering students..". You commission the work to be done with the

faculty - so they can supervise the work. Students are much to busy to undertake a major

research project unless it is supervised by the faculty, and they get credit for the work toward

their dissertation. Commissioning research at a university is really a great way for a company

to get research done. One can obtain the services of some of the top people in a given field,

who are on the research faculty. Additionally, graduate students are extremely productive -

they really work like dogs. [ I remember those days well. ]

Quote:
Nothing wrong with that, if I'm correct, whatever works. But I think it's just their own formulation of resins. Corian, as I understand it, is simply a trademarked name for a particular formulation of BMC. I think you could copy it exactly, if you can determine the recipe, and sell it, as long as you don't call it Corian.
No - if you patent the material - then you have sole rights to the material for the duration of the

patent.


What you are confusing this with is "trademark". If you take an ordinary common material that

is available to anyone, and you put your special name on it - that is a "trademark". Other people

can sell the same publicly available material - but they can't call it by the trademarked name.


However, if you patent a material - then you have sole use of that material for the

duration of the patent - because it is an invention.
 

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Please see my post in the other thread... I'm pretty sure the Wilson material is some form of phenolic resin composite. I've worked with a generic formulation of this stuff and it is as hard as steel, extremely heavy, and a complete pain to machine. You also need special glue to bind it together. It sounds like Wilson has come up with their own recipie (typically the filler inside the resin) to hit certain acoustic / density targets. All conjecture of course...


Corian is semi-dense but can be cut easily with the proper tools.
 

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Cool!

I'll be using my "Mediterranean blue" countertops to build my next line arrays!

Sweet!

:D
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbius
That's not how one goes about commissioning work at a university. You don't just

"ask some BYU engineering students..". You commission the work to be done with the

faculty - so they can supervise the work.
Obviously, I was oversimplifying the process, but you know how it works.
Quote:


No - if you patent the material - then you have sole rights to the material for the duration of the

patent.
That's assuming that it's patentable. Here's what Wilson says, no mention of a patent, at least here:

Quote:
Methacrylic/Ceramic compounds: These are ideal for mid and high frequency enclosures because they are extremely hard and solid allowing for a tremendous dynamic wavelaunch. They do not change the pitch of music, and they have superior damping characteristics to MDF. This material also has an extremely low natural resonant frequency, meaning that the enclosure is less likely to resonate sympathetically.


High Density Phenolic: By far this is the best, most non-resonant material we have ever encountered. It has almost no ringing at all, and does not alter the pitch or tonal character of music. We use this material where applicable, especially in low frequency enclosures.


Developing these breakthrough technologies is not done for marketing purposes and these technologies are not used indiscriminately. They are used only if their benefits are suited to the application at hand. Materials technology is one of the least understood and most poorly applied facets of loudspeaker design. By applying our research and knowledge in this field, we are able to deliver a product that is dynamic, involving, and true to the intent of the recording.
Quote:


What you are confusing this with is "trademark". If you take an ordinary common material that

is available to anyone, and you put your special name on it - that is a "trademark". Other people

can sell the same publicly available material - but they can't call it by the trademarked name.
That's why I talked about Corian being a trademark name, for, probably, what is a fairly common material. Who know whether Wilson's materials are patented or not actually doesn't matter. They don't seem to be. They say "proprietary", which just basically means they are the only ones use it and they're not sharing the info on it. Again, a special formulation that they want to keep to themselves, and that is fine. Patenting it won't make it sound any better.
Quote:


However, if you patent a material - then you have sole use of that material for the

duration of the patent - because it is an invention.
Yes, but I believe you'd have to do something never before done to create said material. Many things are simply not patentable. That's why the call it an "application for patent", it's certainly not something that you can declare.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall
Yes, but I believe you'd have to do something never before done to create said material. Many things are simply not patentable.
Juan,


It's not patentable if it's "obvious" - or if it naturally derives from mathematics. An algorithm itself

is not patentable - but an implementation of the algorithm in a physical device is.


New materials definitely are patentable. For example, following are the listings courtesy

of the U.S. Patent Office for a sampling of some of the new materials that scientists at

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory have patented in the last few years:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/6592979

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/6137025

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/6087407

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/5973015

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/6005012

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/5958363

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/5882496

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/5908896


If the material is new creation - new resin, new structure, new combination of resin and structure...

that makes the material have some advantageous properties - then you have an invention.
 

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I'm not disputing any of that. What I'm saying is that X material may simply be a proprietary forumulation geared specifically for Wilson's needs rather than a brand new patentable substance. And whether that is true or not doesn't even matter, as long as it works.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall
I'm not disputing any of that. What I'm saying is that X material may simply be a proprietary forumulation geared specifically for Wilson's needs rather than a brand new patentable substance. And whether that is true or not doesn't even matter, as long as it works.
Juan,


Under the conditions you state above - it would be patentable.


One can even patent a new use of a known material, or a known process, as the following

from the University of Rochester Office of Technology Transfer states:

http://www.rochester.edu/ott/faq/#patentable


"The invention must be noticeably different from publicly available inventions. This does not

mean that all aspects of an invention must be novel. For example, new uses of known processes,

matter, or materials are patentable. Incremental improvements on known processes may also be

patentable."
 

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Y'know the one word post from the original poster (OP) sure has created a lot of posts.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_R
Please see my post in the other thread... I'm pretty sure the Wilson material is some form of phenolic resin composite. I've worked with a generic formulation of this stuff and it is as hard as steel, extremely heavy, and a complete pain to machine. You also need special glue to bind it together. It sounds like Wilson has come up with their own recipie (typically the filler inside the resin) to hit certain acoustic / density targets. All conjecture of course...


Corian is semi-dense but can be cut easily with the proper tools.
the Kharma Exquisite was originally made by glueing together 1" thick sheets of this phenolic resin composite. each of these sheets (which were the size of a lengthwise cross section of the speaker) were hollowed out in random shapes to eliminate any resonance. this modestly sized speaker weighed 565 pounds and was essentially a solid block of resin.


later, Kharma discovered that using HDF (high density fibreboard) for the inner sheets had no audible dis-advantage and was easier and cheaper to build. they still use the phenolic resin composite sheets for the outside sheets.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_R
Please see my post in the other thread... I'm pretty sure the Wilson material is some form of phenolic resin composite. I've worked with a generic formulation of this stuff and it is as hard as steel, extremely heavy, and a complete pain to machine. You also need special glue to bind it together. It sounds like Wilson has come up with their own recipie (typically the filler inside the resin) to hit certain acoustic / density targets. All conjecture of course...


Corian is semi-dense but can be cut easily with the proper tools.
Yeah! some form of phenolic resin composite alright. The Vandy 5A uses some form also but way way cheaper, but other exotic speaker makers call these high pressure epoxy laminate material as proprietary and magic johnson and charge more bucks :D


"very hard" phenolic resin and mineral mix -- and, I suspect, a dollop or two of other stuff. http://www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/...tt_puppy_7.htm


"Wilson makes use of exotic materials, such as phenolic resin-based ceramics, the same stuff that's used by Intel to reduce tremors during chip fabrication. The ceramics are 14 times as expensive as fiberboard. "
www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbusiness/ technology/articles/0,15114,460275-2,00.html
 
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