[noah katz]

The WSR review has the HS51 actually delivering on its CR claims, at least the extent that other pj's do (settings for max CR at the expense of color accuracy) .


Apparently the iris operation is more or less transparent, so for $3.5K you get a pj that is fully competitive with HD2+ DLP; I'd say that the SD that bothers some people on the Sony is balanced by RB that bother some people, plus the Sony is brighter. Plus it has H+V lens shift and a lower power bulb which is cheaper to replace.


So if I was a pj mfgr, I'd be feeling the need to cut my prices or match CR somehow. Seems like the autoiris is the most cost effective way to get a manyfold increase in CR.


But even if DLP uses it to get 20,000:1, I wonder how much it would help them compete. I doubt that more than a small minority have the light control to benefit from >4000:1 (Sony's CR at D65, IIRC).


I just realized thisis pretty much the question posed by Tryg's thread, oh well.

 

[TheFerret]

I bet TI is doing some damage control between their respect product manufacturers to come up with a means for countering this in the market. Heck, when was the last time you could get a MSRP$3.5K 720P DLP, let alone one at the street pricing currently going on?


So, even if they do manage to take advantage of this approach to light modulation they'll still have to compete early in the game with what LCD's are selling for. And then they'll have to double-up their efforts come Q1/Q2 when D5/720P products start deploying.


Personally, no manufacturer should place all of its eggs in one basket, but some have. Now they have scrambled eggs for breakfast and nothing to wash it down with. At least Sony is deploying two forms of technology. And as a caboose to the situation any revision Canon decides to make to the SX50 in terms of light modulation (ok, dynamic iris) will only further the hot breadth breathing down TI's neck. LOL

 

[golfnz34me]

Keep in mind that thie high CR is ON/OFF, not ansi. The HS51 will look great in low light scenes, but will still be easily bested by the HD2+ machines in the medium/high brightness scenes. I suspect that the black bars on 2.35 movies will show this deficiency very well. (a good test for ansi contrast.)

 

[Ohlson]

golf..

Mask the screen! non issue solved

I find that most mid level and high level light scenes look good. With lcds handling the low light scenes well as is good.

 

[HoustonHoyaFan]

Quote:

Originally posted by golfnz34me Keep in mind that thie high CR is ON/OFF, not ansi. The HS51 will look great in low light scenes, but will still be easily bested by the HD2+ machines in the medium/high brightness scenes. I suspect that the black bars on 2.35 movies will show this deficiency very well. (a good test for ansi contrast.)

We should put this in perspective. As Bill Cushman pointed out in his review, most rooms will limit ANSI CR to less than 100:1T he HS51 has better ANSI CR than most high end CRTs which show the best black bars! Letter box bars are not a good test for ANSI CR.

 

[Deja Vu]

If the best CRTs have an ANSI CR of 100:1, and the Sony is well over that, I would be surprised if the HD2+ dlps have much of a real world edge here.

Bill Cushman gives a very good analysis of ansi contrast in his Sony review. He states that only rooms with dark walls will allow ANSI contrast of over 50:1 (it doesn't matter what your pj can do, the room determines most of what you actually see on the screen) so if your walls are light coloured your HD2+ dlp 500:1 CR (ansi contrast) is mostly wasted.


As to Noah's question - they are going to have to or they'll be left in the dust.


Cheers,


Grant

 

[HoustonHoyaFan]

Unless Sony has a patent! As I posted the Sony patent speculation thread the panny 700 lamp iris is not an iris but a "flap" or "valve". It is from prelim reviews (Cine4Home) not has effective as the Sony design. Does sony have patent protection on it's design?

 

[Ohlson]

Epson is coming with the same thing. They are talking about 9-10000:1 for auto-iris with the d5 generation, most likely the 720p chip since the 1080p chip will have a lower cr.

 

[Scott B]

Once we hit 9-10,000:1 on-off CR I think we can forget about contrast as being an area needing improvement. It sounds like its time to concentrate on VB and FPN, not to mention screendoor. I recall reading that Epson is developing software to deal with screendoor (I think Panasonic uses an optical approach).


If we can fix these LCD issues, then I think the days of those silly little rotating colour wheel headache inducing single chip DLP projectors are numbered.

 

[Innova]

Anyone know how software would fix screendoor? Wobble-ation similar to TI's smooth picture?

 

[rogo]

TI has mentioned on several occasions its Dynamic Black technology and has shown it in the demo xHD3 RPTV. What this means, I dunno....

 

[Kysersose]

Quote:

Originally posted by Scott B Once we hit 9-10,000:1 on-off CR I think we can forget about contrast as being an area needing improvement. It sounds like its time to concentrate on VB and FPN, not to mention screendoor. I recall reading that Epson is developing software to deal with screendoor (I think Panasonic uses an optical approach). If we can fix these LCD issues, then I think the days of those silly little rotating colour wheel headache inducing single chip DLP projectors are numbered.

Yes, but for most of us who are not bothered by rainbows we have been living with a good CR, minimal SDE, and no VB or FPN.


I personally will not upgrade until I see something other than a CRT that can do a real "fade to black" and that won't break the bank.


VB on any LCD would be a deal killer for me.

 

[noah katz]

"As to Noah's question - they are going to have to or they'll be left in the dust."


The big question now is, are they motivated enough (assuming it's even possible) to update their pj's before the normal next round of new products a year from now.

 

[rogo]

" The big question now is, are they motivated enough (assuming it's even possible) to update their pj's before the normal next round of new products a year from now."


I doubt it. The CE companies only have so many gears.

 

[TomHuffman]

After a direct A/B with calibrated versions of the BenQ 8700 and the Sony HS20, I found the differences in CR noticeable but of little consequence. What really made the DLP shine to my eyes was the liquid smoothness of the image compared to the Sony, which just looked more digital. I attributed this difference to fill factor.


This is an important area in which I suspect DLP will continue to have an advantage for the forseeable future (and why LCoS is so attractive). Nonetheless, its hard to deny that this recent advance in LCD technology is anything other than revolutionary.

 

[TheFerret]

Tom, which is why some of wonder if Canon should take note (implement the same DI menchanism) of Sony's lead in this area and then best both the LCD and DLP world for resolutions below 1080P.


But, I also think [Sony] LCD will find a good market, because a streetable $4K 720P DLP is still 40-50% more $$$. When it get's below $3K it may be of competition, but that is 'when' they can do it. This is why I think suggested TI will have to perform damage control with its 720P projector manufacturers as those manufacturers are not seeing the full potential of sales revenue when part of said potential is going to Sony & company.

 

[W.Mayer]

Once we hit 9-10,000:1 on-off CR I think we can forget about contrast as being an area needing improvement.


scott b your no. are to high!


trust me i test it already.

in a normally living room you cant see a difference between a 2000:1 and

3000:1 cr.

we simulate in my black box cinema a cr. from 5000:1 and compare it with

7500:1 and even in my totally black box you cant see any improvement.


for me it was clear that in normally rooms if you can get true 3000:1 cr.at

d 65 than you will not see any improvement if a other pr. that

have more cr.

in rooms with a lot of white walls may the max.is lower.


in a black box (how many people like such room and will an can do it?)

a pr. with 5000:1 cr. thats it.

more even there you cant see at all.

btw:as already posted in such rooms its forbidden to wear a white shirt because that can kill the cr.


so for me i will forget the endless discussion about cr. with all

the new technology like adaptive iris and......

 

[Tryg]

Quote:

Originally posted by W.Mayer Once we hit 9-10,000:1 on-off CR I think we can forget about contrast as being an area needing improvement.

Dont underestimate the fanatical

 

[darinp2]

Quote:

Originally posted by W.Mayer Once we hit 9-10,000:1 on-off CR I think we can forget about contrast as being an area needing improvement. scott b your no. are to high! trust me i test it already. in a normally living room you cant see a difference between a 2000:1 and 3000:1 cr. we simulate in my black box cinema a cr. from 5000:1 and compare it with 7500:1 and even in my totally black box you cant see any improvement.

I respectfully disagree. Even if a person couldn't tell you which was:


200:1 or 300:1

300:1 or 500:1

500:1 or 800:1

800:1 or 1300:1

1300:1 or 2100:1

2100:1 or 3400:1

3400:1 or 5000:1

5000:1 or 7500:1

7500:1 or 11000:1

11000:1 or 16000:1

16000:1 or 25000:1

25000:1 or 40000:1


it in no way means that they couldn't tell the difference between 5000:1 and 20000:1 or 10000:1 and infinite (or any 2 of the gaps). Try 5000:1 to 80000:1 with "Cast Away", "Finding Nemo", ... (any movie with blackouts) even in a white room (no external ambient light allowed though) and if you can't see any difference then I think it would indicate a pretty serious vision problem.
Quote:

in a black box (how many people like such room and will an can do it?) a pr. with 5000:1 cr. thats it.

I doubt very much that you couldn't tell the difference if somebody put their hand over the projector lens with a blackout (this is what it is supposed to look like) and a projector doing 5000:1. I've done this kind of testing in my theater and posted the results here . With 4000:1 or so from my projector it is not just the blackout scenes where the raised black floor is noticable either. There is plenty of room for improvement over 4000:1 IMO.


People can simulate some of these high CRs with two projectors and neutral density material over one. Put the ND material over the projector that will be simulating the black level. The amount the ND material is reducing the light can be measured with a white screen. Then the black level from the ND projector can be measured without the ND in place and calculated with the reduction when the ND material is in place. Now put an appropriate scene up on the uncovered projector. Different scene levels can be tested. Then just cover (or have somebody cover) the brighter projector with a DVD case. This will show you what that transition to blackout would look like with the high CR that you can calculate.


This is much easier if you just want to simulate what you have against infinite CR (or the perception of infinite CR). Just have somebody cover the projector with a DVD case and see what things would look like if your projector could actually do blackouts as blackouts. Of course, you could also turn the projector off, but this isn't good for the bulb if you want to do multiple tests.


--Darin

 

[W.Mayer]

Dont underestimate the fanatical

yes tryg i know it




darinp2

there is a big difference going from 500:1 to 1000:1.

but at some point (3000:1 in normally rooms and 5000:1 in a black box)

you will not get a big improvement anymore.

for the top cr. pr.at the market most rooms are already the limitation.

i try ed that with my qualia change the location from my big cinema (black box) to my sleeping room.

it was a huge difference.

anyway i see it like i post and for my black box i hope that sony will implement the adaptive iris to the 4 k pr. to hit 4 or 5k cr.

cr. is already a no issue anymore for me with a 2000:1 cr. from the qualia and i am coming from a double stack g90