AVS Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 53 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,660 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Whatever happened to the Highpower screen? With all these incredibly low output PJ's coming to light (pun intended), whatever happened to the idea of a Using a High-power? Or just a white screen period? What gives?


When CR's get high enough, the gray screen are no longer needed or necessary. The idea is HT. This means HOME THEATER, not 'in your living room-abnomally large TV'. Home Theater is all about having a Theater space in your house..ie..controlled lighting. In this case, the Da-lite High-Power, or a white screen makes sense. It keeps your brightness up,and the black level detail should definitely be there, if the PJ is up to snuff.


So many people out here, who have never, in their ENTIRE LIVES ...who have NEVER witnessed a properly calibrated CRT monitor or CRT PJ, believe in falsified black levels. This is how every TV in existence has been delivered and shown. So, they take these low output digital PJ's, with High CR's, and display them on gray screens that crush the black level detail..and call it GREAT!..when they have never seen anything 'properly' adjusted in their entire lives. They see this falsified black level,and think it is depth and detail, when it is actually nothing close to that.


What the heck is going on here?


Sorry about the side rant, but it is directly coupled to the fact that it was easy to look into the future, when Grey screens for Home Theater where originally introduced....that these screens would go the way of the Do-Do bird when high CR digital PJ's begin to appear. Well, those PJ's are here.


Let's hear it for the White screen. Use it for the same reason CRT PJ users do:


-High Light Output

-Proper Color Balance

-Linearity in dynamics

-....etc


I know, I know, here come the arguments about why gray is better. Here we go again. it's only better if you have the lumen couunt to drive it, the room probelms to deal with, and the -color linearity- and dynamic linearty. Apparently these things don't exsit. The only real problem is the room problems..and those are easily cured. The popularity of the grey screen is not going to be here a year from now. It's not nessessary.


I mean personally, and in reality.. if I have a 2000:1 CR PJ, even simply rated at 2K:1 CR, and it doesn't measure that good, and a 1000 lumen output, there is no way in hell I am going to use a grey screen with it. Once you get to about a TRUE, properly created 1000-1200:1 CR or so, the grey screens start to become unessessary. More of a flat out detriment at that point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,273 Posts
Wel put Ken, I couldn't agree more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
897 Posts
Hi Ken,


You've got my vote too. I have a 1.5, not a Hi-Power but I'm happy with it coupled with my HT1000.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
235 Posts
unless you have a 100% pitch black HT room, Firehawk(grey) screen is probably the only choice. Because Firehawk rejects much of ambient light. I believe this is the main reason for Firehawk owners, NOT the blacks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
792 Posts
I totally agree with KBK. When the original R & D started for the "grey screens", there was a real need for it as most of the than available digital projectors had very poor contrast levels. With the advent of the newer DLP models, and even some of the newer LCD units, contrast ratio isnt really an issue any more. Why give up lumens and also introduce any color shift to the picture?


I am curently using a MARANTZ S2, table top mounted, with a 2.8 high power DA LITE screen (80" x 45")and when i sit in the sweet spot,(behind the projector) i am getting apprx 78 foot lamperts! And what a picture it is !. Superbly lit picture with great color, punch, and an amazing three dimensional look to it. Watched "GOLD MEMBER", and the new DVD release of CARLOS SANTANA;S "SUPERNATURAL" concert, well i have to tell you, it dont get any more real than what i saw last night. I was part of the concert crowd. What an intense musical, and video experience that was.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
650 Posts
Yay for Ken!

The group mentality around here at times seems to be "gray screen for everyone!". It feels a bit off when I see so many first time pj owners being driven towards getting a grey screen without even stopping to consider a "boring" white screen.

Even though I own a measly 800:1 contrast, 700 lumens lcd, I still preferred the matte white screen sample to any of the gray screen samples I received. Sure, blacks looked darker on the gray, but whites looked that much darker also. And I still get great shadow detail with a white screen - no gray screen can help with that. Sometimes it seems like a lot of people (sub 5K-ers especially) believe getting a gray screen will actually increase their pj's measured constrast ratios by say 30%-100% just because the screen has "high contrast" in the name - this needs to stop! Perhaps this whole myth gets propogated when someone with poor light control or even no screen backing switches to a gray screen - obviously they will see a large improvement, then brag to their friends how much the gray screen improved actual and perceived contrast (forgetting to mention their awful ht conditions)!


Mike U.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,020 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by KBK
Whatever happened to the Highpower screen? With all these incredibly low output PJ's coming to light (pun intended), whatever happened to the idea of a Using a High-power? Or just a white screen period?


What gives?
Maybe that some people like gray screens and DO find that they increase apparent black levels with very acceptable trade-offs? Not to mention the extreme advantage the Firehawk offers for people that don't have a cave. As for high-power screens, they appear to be alive and well and many, many people here report using them. I don't think your perception that everyone is using a gray screen is accurate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,049 Posts
Bravo Ken. Please take a moment to review the thread I started about this a few weeks ago at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...readid=194397.


This was my thinking exactly. As it relates to the Marantz S2 - why take a beautiful picture with excellent CR and put it on a gray screen and sacrifice some of your whites, when indeed it doesn't need the gray to improve contrast? The ambient light argument is a valid one I suppose, but for me ambient light is not an issue so I prefer not to sacrifice any of my whites.


Unfortunately for me it looks like my viewing angle would only result in about a 1.3-1.5 gain or so :(. Boy I wish I could get close to 2.0+. Can you guys take a quick read through the thread I linked to above to let me know if you have any ideas for getting the higher gain out of the HighPower? Please keep in mind as you read that, that I cannot lower my screen due to cabinet restricitions.


Assuming everyone here agrees that 1.3-1.5 gain is the most I'd get out of the HighPower with my specific viewing environment/setup, then I'll likely go with a 1.5 gain white screen.


While I'm thinking of it, does anyone know of a white screen with higher gain than 1.5 that is NOT retro-reflective (I think that is the correct term)?


Thanks to all in advance!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,049 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Refling
Hi Ken,


You've got my vote too. I have a 1.5, not a Hi-Power but I'm happy with it coupled with my HT1000.
Hi Glenn,


Can I ask which 1.5 gain you went with? Stewart, DaLite, etc? What size screen are you using?


How did you ultimately pick the 1.5 gain? Did you have a chance to demo it using other screen materials or did you just base this on what seemed to be the most logical choice?


Also do you ever notice any hotspotting or sparkles in the image? Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
859 Posts
I just wanted to point out, as one who has owned a High Power (albeit with a CRT) that it also has excellent ambient light rejection, being that it is retro-reflective.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,660 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
PPP:

I just clicked on the 'happy customer'. if it wasn't so ugly, it would be funny. I still giggled my ass off. Poor *******.


It's just that the number of threads surrounding the idea of a gray screen are so numerous at times, they seem to be cropping up like weeds. Nothing against sales..but maybe steered in the right direction instead...mmm...perhaps?


I still remember about a particular store selling a certain gray screen. The store could not sell lower priced, better serving screen, because the customers wanted the cache, the name, the 'expected' image, and the screens their friends had. Kind like the "I don't like that Mercedes because of the tires on it" syndrome.


The continuous stream of gray screen threads that have happened at times, is a echo of the sub fiver forum's 'I gots my PJ today' threads...


Of course, I have noticed a lack of 'boat rocking' on this forum as of recent. The cash cow labeling can't be too far behind. Lineup for the fleecing. Don't worry, you won't even notice. From Alpha to gamma in one easy blink, and you didn't even see it happen. Such is the power of marketing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
861 Posts
"... it was easy to look into the future, when Grey screens

for Home Theater where originally introduced....that these

screens would go the way of the Do-Do bird when high CR

digital PJ's begin to appear. Well, those PJ's are here."


Absolutely correct KBK.


I wrote the following here on June 18, 2002.


"The fact grey screens are a patch will be very quickly seen

when digital does black - the market for grey screens will

vanish overnight as LCD/DLP owners find they are no longer

willing to accept the trade-off that a grey screen demands."


The amazing thing to me was the vitriole that such a view received.


Over time, there was also a curious lack of objectivity as a performance standard in comparing/owning grey screens.


Well, if you want a truly objective performance standard - then that's what you do! Compare a white screen to a grey screen and know what the trade-off is and accept or reject it.


But discussing a grey screen's basic trade-off here has been the stuff of herecy and high treason!


But the bottom line is that the days of grey are numbered - and you're right; it was very easy to see where they were going.


In time they will be seen as a product of their time.


But that time has passed.



Max Christoffersen
www.audioenz.co.nz
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27,143 Posts
The CRT analogy (why CRT to users prefer white screens) seems like an invalid analogy to me. Sorta like saying Tiger Woods uses Nike Golf balls, if you don't you're not serious about your game.


CRT projector mavens as well as those with digital PJs all have simliar ideals on what is an ideal picture, but CRTs are no more like digital projectors than my golf game being as good as Tiger Woods' because I, too, use Nike balls.


Analogies are always an invalid tool when trying to argue one's point (Logic 101). They are only valuable for demonstrative purposes.


Are there any true 1000-2000:1 contrast ratio, high lumen projectors out there at a reasonable price TODAY?


I certainly know of no DILAs that are under $20K with the CR and super high lumen output that Ken speaks of. DLPs I haven't seen either.


If not, we are merely speaking in the abstract.


Remember, that screen preference is a qualitative, not quantitative issue. For some the trade offs are worthy, for others, perhaps not.


For today, the grey screens are a nice option. Tomorrow maybe not. You call them band-Aids, others call 'em enhancements. Is glass is half empty or half full?


Let's have this abstract arguement when 2000 CR high lumen PJs are the norm, not the dream. Lets not forget, screen technology will have also evolved by then and perhaps an unknown material, color, etc. will be the hip thing!


Jeff
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,654 Posts
I'm using a Hi-Power on a 2200 lumen pj. I often have to fight ambient light, but it is superb in total darkness as well. Some here think I'm nuts for using this combo, but I think that opinion is on the way out (as more people see the benefits of high lumens for showing detail).


But I can't imagine why anyone with a pj in the 300 to 1300 lumen range would NOT use a Hi-Power. I would think it would be a "must have" for such projectors in any environment.


It seems Ken and I agree on at least something.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,535 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by JHouse
(as more people see the benefits of high lumens for showing detail).
Count me as one of the people who does not see that benefit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,654 Posts
Most people will jump on the fact that a higher lumen projector makes video noise and screen door more visible, so why not the desirable details too? We want to be consistent don't we?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,535 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by JHouse
We want to be consistent don't we?
If there is one thing you are it is certainly consistent.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,654 Posts
Sounds like a non-denial denial to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
207 Posts
but KBK, what about your screen goo??? is that out of production now?


and firehawk has just been released here in australia ($6000-$7000, they gotta be dreaming)


well good thing my grey screen was cheaply made with black out cloth, I can save my pennies for a white screen for when I eventually upgrade to NEC HT1000.


but by the way, my 400:1 CR Mitsubishi XD200 does seem to genuinely benefit from the grey screen (poor ambient light control)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,092 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by cmont
Count me as one of the people who does not see that benefit.
A good friend of mine does reviews for a living. He has a set-up where he has a fixed 92"X52" Grayhawk behind a pull-down Hi-Power.


Most of the projectors he reviews are HT type projectors so they are usually in the 1000 Lumen or less category. He has had many friends over including myself and to my knowledge not one person has perferred the Grayhawk over the Hi-power even with low contrast projectors like the 10HT.


Swatches don't do the Hi-Power justice. You have to see your favorite projector on a full screen to appreciate it.


Now, I'm not saying everyone would perfer the Hi-Power over a gray screen; just that I've never met anyone who didn't.


-Mr. Wigggles
 
1 - 20 of 53 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top