AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Spent three days reading all threads, but am still very much confused. Kindly give me some help pls.......


I just bought a cheap Sony VPL-CS5 (LCD Data Projector, 1800ANSI, 400:1) -- not for HT, but for my son watch cartoon DVDs during the day time (he loves biiiig screen, and my wife thought it's good for the eyes blar blar blar). It's doing well, with a proper screen & CS5's high brightness, and my son is really happy.


The problem comes at night --- my wife now thinks we should watch DVDs on projector instead of our 16:9 CRT TVset. I tried explain to her that it's a 'DATA' projector and can't compare with CRT (except the size), but she said it's far more involving since 'it's more like in cinema'..... now am in trouble ---- how can I improve the pq without throw the new $1500 PJ out and buy an expensive HT model whilst my son can still watch during daytime(with high room light)?


First thing am trying to do is buy a high contrast screen (cloth only, cost around $240), replace the current high gain screen. Samples will be sent to me soon, so I can make a safe decision.


Second is ....... should I buy an scaler? will that improve the pq????? Am thinking of AVT-3700, N6, iScan Pro(or even iScan Ultra?), any suggestion? I can't borrow these equipments here, so have to mail-order them.


My DVD player is old SD-2109, has component out. DVDs: 40% NTSC (Region 1), 50% PAL (Region 2, mainly European movies), most of them are 'art' movies for my wife.


Projector details:

native 800x600, available input: S-Video, VGA, Component.

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...ntentItemPage=


(do need your help .... I know nothing about HT, all my time was spent on my music collection --- and all my money has gone to LPs/CDs/turntable/amp/spkr....)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,703 Posts
Before buying a scaler or de-interlacer, or screen, start by plugging the (regular interlaced) DVD player into the projector directly using component video. See how the picture looks. Here you are eigher using a built in scaler in the projector, or getting a 640 x 480 picture with black on all four sides.


If you get a 640 x 480 picture, then to take advantage of all 800 x 600 resolution (800 x 450 for widescreen) you need an exyternal scaler.


Not sure about the scaler models you mentioned, but a Lumagen Vision (same de=interlacing as an IScan, plus a scaler) will do an 800 x 600 picture from either NTSC or PAL that beats the vast majority of data grade projector de-interlacing and data grade progjector scaling. You will have to spend USD 1000. Also the picture for 16x9 enhanced material will be 800 x 480 for NTSC and 800 x 576 for PAL within the 800 x 600 scaled frame, not the correct 800 x 450, and you will have to put up with slight squishing or slight cropping of the sides, your choice.


Video hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/video.htm
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you for the reply!

At the moment am using S-Video for DVD. The component video must be connected by a VGA/3xRCA breakout cable which I don't have yet. The VGA port on projector can be configured accepting RGB or YCrCb.


For S-Video connection, the picture size is correct (full screen for 4:3 DVD movies), so I assume it has an internal scaler handle both NTSC & PAL correctly. The PJ has 16:9 mode, something like 800x450, widescreen DVDs is also displayed correctly..


Picture qulity has some sort of 'harsh' feeling when project to 110" screen size, but smoother on 72". I can see digital 'noise' on screen, colors are okay.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,037 Posts
As you watch PAL material you shoudl be aware that the 576P signal that likne doublers/de-interlacers like Iscan stick out may not be displayable by your projector. NTSC de-interlaced to 480P is usually fine as it's so clse to VGA resolution.


I am pretty sure that any quality scaler with 800X600 resolution and 2:2 pulldown (for PAL film source material) and 2:3 pulldown (for NTSC film source material) will be a BIG improvement on your projector by itself.


Gordon
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,703 Posts
The projector's scaler also handles the projector's 16:9 mode. Whether or not it equals an external scaler, using the projector's 16:9 mode and leaving the DVD player TV shape setting in 16:9 all the time is almost always better than using the player's 4:3 TV shape.


The vast majority of combinations of 480p from a progressive DVD player into the VGA input of a data projector (with choice of component video color space) will work with no problem. The rare problems arise from the slight timing differences in the horizontal retrace interval between consumer video (SMPTE) and PC video (VESA) and whether the projector demands that the horizontal and vertical sync. be carried separately on a fourth and fifth cable.


If the picture seems harsh, try defocusing. With a very large screen size, the pixel structure of 800x600 will be visible.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Does the scaler actually convert consumer video into PC Video (VESA)?


Seemed iScan doesn't fit my situation -- no scaler function.

Lumagen Vision is good, but I'll pay $1700 here for those functions designed for much better display devices.

NextVision N6 is not in UK yet (am temporarily living in London), also only support NTSC(?).

AVT-3700 imageMAX is US$480 here, looks ideal for my application...


Gordon said "any quality scaler .... will be a BIG improvement", but when "quality" scaler cost more than the display itself, something is wrong. Maybe I should just buy a "cheap quick fix" -- if it exists.


I found my situation is more like those newbie audiophiles : already have 'budget' CD player, bought a pair of 'cheap' speaker, looking for amplifier upgrades to make it sounds better -- however even Jeff Rolland will not drive it to the level of B&W801. There must be a balance point, I just don't know where....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,132 Posts
AVT-3700 should do fine when set to SVGA RGB mode. It has 16:9 squeeze, 480i component input (as well as Svideo and composite) which should be best for your Tosh DVD. It can output 480p, 720p, and 1080i but I doubt that your data PJ can handle HDTV resolutions. I had a Sony CX1 (XGA LCD, 550 lumens) and it can handle only VGA, 480i via component (requires VGA->3RCA breakout cable), Svideo, or composite. The cheapie Viewsonic VB50HRTV ($100) looked better than its internal scaler. I'd bet that any outboard scaler will beat your data PJ built-in scaler as it's not meant for HT. There is a new VB50 killer $100 scaler made by Jaton (Xmedia dreambox) that has Svideo and composite 480i input, 16:9 squeeze, and PC passthrough. It outputs in VGA, SVGA, and XGA. Downside is it suffers from mild Macrovision light pulsing so you need MV free DVD player or MV buster type device. VB50 has no 16:9 squeeze and also suffers from mild MV pulsing. AVT-3700 beats VB50 by a mile on my XGA digital PJ and does not suffer MV pulsing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,703 Posts
Not sure about all scalers but 800x600 output is a PC only output and the timing should therefore always be optimized for PC's. The Lumagen models have some tweaking available. Only the 640x480 (480p) output has the consumer vs. PC timing issue since that scan rate is common to both. (Consumer video scalers usually output "640x480" with horizontal pixel pitch of 1/720, some experts use "640x480" to refer to PC retrace timing and "720x480" to refer to consumer timing. If the only thing "wrong" is the pixel pitch, the system will still work.)


A scaler or de-interlacer does not specifically convert consumer video retrace timing to PC video timing. During the scaling process, only the picture material (active portion of the scan line) is processed. When the processing is finished, new retrace intervals with the desired timing need to be put back in before the video is output as RGB or component video.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I bought the AVT-3700 - and the result is much much better than I expected (since I was thinking it will improve pq, but no that much on my cheap SVGA data PJ). Connect the DVD component to AVT-3700, CableTV/SVHS via S-Video to 3700, output SVGA directly to PJ, turn on PJ's automatic pixel mapping function, fine tune it, calibrate the PJ & 3700 using Avia DVD, slightly de-focus the PJ as Allan suggested to hide the screen door a little bit ... then play the Superbit 5th Element (NTSC) ... oh s**t ... it's damned GOOD! A 'silky' picture (from 3:2 pulldown?), free of jaggies, smooth edge, beautiful colour and colour separation ... it's so amazing how a de-interlacer/scaler can save my data PJ from just being purely daytime cartoon TVset. This is a 'mobile' 1800ANSI/400:1 HT that cost only $2000, 5 star value 'f money, ideal for people like me who doing projects all around the world and moving into another company rented apartment every one or two years. Wish I can soon be back to hometown and settle down with a bigger place -- then it's time for a proper HT, with a proper CRT PJ, and, from the experience I just got --- with a proper video processor!


Well there is still problems... not sure caused by 3700 or my Avia calibration process, or something that I need to wait a period and get myself to 'memorise'. I will re-do calibration tonight anyway, hope part of list will be gone.


First I need advice on calibration sequence: Should I calibrate the PJ first (via DVD component output), then calibrate 3700? Last night what I did is quite simple: set the PJ with my normal viewing setting (brightness 40, Contrast 95), then calibrate the 3700. If I remember correctly, after calibration, the 3700 contrast is set at 28%, brightness as 58%. The Avia test pattern for grey scale are displayed correctly, however in the movies, some black object lost details -- it looks too black.


Avia is NTSC, after calibration, the demo movie is NTSC 5th Element etc. -- super, except it's more 'colourful' then before! Then I start to play PAL DVDs, again all DVDs looks like colours are generally over-emphasised -- maybe the wrong word, I will say colours are too much -- sky is shiny blue, human face become bit of red.... The situation is even worse on S-Video input, my cable TV program looks horrible. Then I realised the 3700 save the setting by source, so I copied the calibrated settings from YCbCr to S-Video -- it improves, but still not correct. I will re-do some proper Avia calibration via both component & S-Video tonight. But does anybody has similar problem before?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
164 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong...


Scaler for me is :


1. I have dvd player with 525p and use scaler to get 540p, 720p, 1080i into my projector

2. I can watch all dvd movie with 2.35 ratio into 1.75 ratio so I can get full screen view on 16:9 screen

3. I can custom output resolution into my projector resolution ( 1280 x 720 )

4. I can get widescreen output from 4:3 source.

5. I can eliminate scan line artifact


That's all what I'm thinking...


Please help..


Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,132 Posts
fujunshi, always calibrate the entire setup and leave it at that (hook everything up like you normally would and calibrate with AVIA). The problem is DVD varies so unless you plan on watching just AVIA DVD, you may have to adjust to your taste on different DVD. That's what the remote control of AVT-3700 is for. For example, some DVD's (especially nonanamorphic ones are too dark while newer ones are fine). Thus, don't expect to calibrate and never touch it again. Just don't go crazy and calibrate all day and not be able to enjoy your movie. This is not an exam. It's a hobby so play with it and then watch the movie :D


Sounds like FE CS-HD may fit your requirements, Abit-ID. Check out their specs: http://www.focusinfo.com/products/ce...enterstage.htm . I'm not sure about 525p. I thought PAL progressive is 576p which CS-HD can handle. Not too many scaler can handle progressive input. The cheapest one is the CS-HD. You can use the zoom function of your DVD player to increase the 2.35:1 to fill 1.78:1 screen. Some scalers have zoom built-in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Carefully re-calibrated the 3700 last night, the color problem for both NTSC & PAL DVDs is gone. Right after calibration (for both S-Video input & component input), S-Video shows slightly higher contrast rate than via component for nearly all moives -- I've tried to increase the 3700 contrast for component, but can't get identical result -- believe that's due to the signal processing within the DVD, the component input looks slightly 'darker' than S-Video, but better picture quality (edge, more acurate reproduction of natual color like face etc.).... Another interesting finding is my data pj seemed has a very quick response time -- not like my TFT PC screen which has obvious tail for fast moving objects.


Anyway, this time is indeed a quick calibration -- 30mins for Avia and test movies, write down the value for backup, then put in a movie bought recently, change the brightness/contrast a little bit to comfort my eyes. After a while it's just about movie itself, I don't watch the screen doors or black level or color or object edge etc., as my wife said -- big screen really makes movie involving. Good HT will make the good movie looks better, like good HIFI equipment make good music sounds better -- probably the best 'machine' are those makes you forget their existence.



Gordon, thanks a lot for your reply, I will have to do another calibration after my Harkness Hall High Contrast Grey 0.8 Gain screen get delivered. It will take two weeks, just about enough for me to 'memorize' the new picture settings (before I bought the Avia, I used very high contrast/brightness setting, low color/tint, too high sharpness level etc.) My question is: if calibrate the DVD first, what scaler & display settings I should set? My current problem is, when I calibrate scaler, I don't know what settings I should put for my PJ -- Factory default? 'Last-Known-Good' setting from direct video connection??


Especially for contrast: if I set my 400:1 PJ contrast at 50%, then increase the scaler's contrast setting, I can find a reference level using Avia (Needle Pulse). Then if I set PJ contrast at 100%, I can still set the scaler to same reference level using Avia. But the visual results are very different. 400:1 is not a good HT PJ, so my purpose is to maximise the use for this 400:1 without distroy the pq and grayscale. Any advice on this?
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top