[DerStig]

I'm a complete newbie in this, and believe it or not I did read everything I can about these video modes. I know 60i is interlaced and it's basically a frame consisting of 2 sections which is good for fast moving scenes, I know PF30 is pretty much 30p but it's Canon's special container format. I also know 24p is for movie like recording.


Question is, based on what I read, 60i and PF30 should be identical, yes? That's when I watch them in my computer (not for youtube). The reality is, in my XA10, even in the LCD monitor of the camera, 60i is significantly faster and more fluid and overall its better. 24p is straight up slow and I can see being useful for movies and such, PF30 on the other hand is no where near as fast as 60i. I just don't understand why someone would use PF30 over 60i, or am I missing something?


Thanks.

 

[Icyman]

Pause the video. You will then see the difference.


60i is most common with bluray & broadcast.

30p is well suited for the Internet.


60i is tricking your brain.

30p is full frames.


I only use 30p as I don't burn to bluray, I use slow motion in editing & share videos with family via YouTube. They are different but it's a preference thing. Use wiki & read up on it. Use the format that meets your needs.


If you are burning to bluray then 60i or 24p are best. 24p will enhance your low light capabilities.


Enjoy.

 

[Ungermann]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20848891


60i and PF30 should be identical, yes?

No. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progres...egmented_frame

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20848891


The reality is, in my XA10, even in the LCD monitor of the camera, 60i is significantly faster and more fluid and overall its better.

Duh. Because 60i is 60 samples per second while PF30 is only 30.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20848891


I just don't understand why someone would use PF30 over 60i, or am I missing something?

Twice higher spatial (in this case, vertical) resolution at price of twice lower temporal resolution.

 

[Icyman]

Why use 60i?

Think about it like this.


The main reason to use 60i is to burn to Bluray or AVCHD DVD. But bluray is truely obsolete. Much like the CD. If your choice to record audio was WAV(60i) or MP3(30p), which would you choose?


While they both allow you to use them on your TV, 30p is the way of the future IMO. Computer viewing is not just on your 21" monitor anymore. I use DLNA through my bluray player(LG570) to view on my 52"LCD. Ironic isn't it. One year old player and it's never had a BD in it. Lol.


If you research how and why 60i came to be used, you will realize how we don't have those issues. As the opponents of 60i put it, "for editing, 30p is easier and cleaner."


So imaging you have this great family video and your wife wants you to make print from one of the frames. If you didn't use 30p you're wife is going to think your an idiot for not knowing how to use the camcorder or worse, for paying too much for a piece of crap camcorder because one of her friend's husband has a $600 canon that makes great prints too.


My $0.02

 

[DerStig]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Icyman /forum/post/20852622


Why use 60i?

Think about it like this.


The main reason to use 60i is to burn to Bluray or AVCHD DVD. But bluray is truely obsolete. Much like the CD. If your choice to record audio was WAV(60i) or MP3(30p), which would you choose?


While they both allow you to use them on your TV, 30p is the way of the future IMO. Computer viewing is not just on your 21" monitor anymore. I use DLNA through my bluray player(LG570) to view on my 52"LCD. Ironic isn't it. One year old player and it's never had a BD in it. Lol.


If you research how and why 60i came to be used, you will realize how we don't have those issues. As the opponents of 60i put it, "for editing, 30p is easier and cleaner."


So imaging you have this great family video and your wife wants you to make print from one of the frames. If you didn't use 30p you're wife is going to think your an idiot for not knowing how to use the camcorder or worse, for paying too much for a piece of crap camcorder because one of her friend's husband has a $600 canon that makes great prints too.


My $0.02

Please explain to me why 30p is noticeably slower or 60i is noticeably more "fluid". I dont edit videos. There are two things I do with my videos, watch them on my tv and upload them to smugmug. I always shoot under 5 minutes, and save every single copy. 60i might not be the way to go in videography/elitist world, but to me and my wife and family, there is a worldof difference, especially when I move the camera around. 24p is plain useless, I'm guessing its by professionals shot by tripod/monopods, because if you hand recod it, the video looks like me playing a high end game on my 5 year old laptop, hurts my eyes. 30p isnt that bad, but no where near as good as 60i.


And why would I pause a video and take pictures? I have a Canon DSLR with 3 prime lenses just for that.

 

[Ungermann]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Icyman /forum/post/20852622


While they both allow you to use them on your TV, 30p is the way of the future IMO.

60p is the future, 60i and 30p are not.

 

[Icyman]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20852752


Please explain to me why 30p is noticeably slower or 60i is noticeably more "fluid". I dont edit videos. There are two things I do with my videos, watch them on my tv and upload them to smugmug. I always shoot under 5 minutes, and save every single copy. 60i might not be the way to go in videography/elitist world, but to me and my wife and family, there is a worldof difference, especially when I move the camera around. 24p is plain useless, I'm guessing its by professionals shot by tripod/monopods, because if you hand recod it, the video looks like me playing a high end game on my 5 year old laptop, hurts my eyes. 30p isnt that bad, but no where near as good as 60i.


And why would I pause a video and take pictures? I have a Canon DSLR with 3 prime lenses just for that.

First, the picture thing. you cant use them both at the same time. So if you are at home watching your video and you see something you wish you could have caught with your still camera, you can capture the image to a still digital in your editing software or player software on you computer. Such as VLC Player. I've done that a few times. With progressive your still will be clear and printable. With interlaced it will not be clear and a print will look awful.


Second if you don't understand why 60i looks smoother then it's best if you do an internet search and read up as I think you will need more back ground in order to understand it properly. That being said, 60i is 60 half frames per second. every odd numbered line then every even line. it looks more fluid at its intended speed 1.0x. But if you slow it down the illusion is lost. As I said before, research why and how 60i came to be.


Smugmug is 30p. Did you not read that on their site? while 60i can technically be converted to 30p for online use, it's not the same look that way. it blends the out of sync lines, talk about a crappy video. If you're doing that you are flushing a $2k camcorder down the toilet.


you said you watch them on your tv. How? from the camcorder? if so eventually it will be full then what? buy more cards? There are better ways.


Serious brother, you bought a high end camcorder, make use of it. This is one of the reasons that many from this site were letting you know it was ok to buy a less expensive model. your initial purchase only puts you halfway there. I spent $800 on my M41 but I have another $700 invested in the accessories and that doesn't include editing software and computer that I already have. You owe it to yourself to put some effort into the presentation.


FYI, You are new to this and thus asking questions, great. Our answers are from our experiences. We are not trying to sell you anything or convince you that you are wrong. It is apparent that you are not understanding our answers completely and I'm sure this is due to a limited frame of reference. These posts help many more people who just read. No one wants to reinvent the wheel and most here do things very similarly because it works and prevents unexpected problems. If you're not willing to do the suggested research then you are wasting everyone's time.


What's more important then knowing the answer? Knowing where to find it!

 

[Ungermann]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Icyman /forum/post/20852958


Smugmug is 30p. Did you not read that on their site? while 60i can technically be converted to 30p for online use, it's not the same look that way. it blends the out of sync lines, talk about a crappy video.

Don't blend then. Use single field. You will lose resolution, but it is usually fine for online viewing: http://www.avchduser.com/articles/wa...aced_video.jsp


Here is why 60p is superior: you get 60 full 1080-line frames every second, you can convert it to 60i and you can convert to 30p without losing resolution. Oh well, maybe Canon will catch up next year.

 

[Icyman]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann /forum/post/20852924


60p is the future, 60i and 30p are not.

Actually, My point is that Progressive is the future. His camera doesn't offer 60p. Besides since the internet standard is 30p and Bluray is 60i, I don't see your point. Future for what? broadcast/media? you're making too many assumptions. 60p could be the betamax of video, better but not market penetrated. you never know. No one is using it much so I don't agree and I'm not talking about a guy and a camcorder.

 

[DerStig]

You guys are making this way more complicated.


- I read everything there is to read on this, I know what interlaced means, heck I spent 10 years with DirectX APIs, polygons, rendering, and so on. I m not an idiot. Please stop telling me what google already is.


- I don't and will not use a camcorder for stills. My dslr is always with me.


- I am telling you what I "see" with my eyes, 30p looks like crap on my TV. I have XBMC and my PC connects to my LCDTV with a HDMI cable. I tranfer videos to my PC, upload them and at the same time watch them myself on XBMC.


- I bought XA10 because of its low light capabilities, its new technology of less megapixels for better low light handling, infrared, better audio. Its the same reason why people buy a BMW M3 or Mercedes AMG. While those cars are made for are a race track, 90% of the people driving them never track them. Its the sound of thr V8, super handling, suspension, and looks that makes the car attractive. Just because I don't spend 2 hours editing videos doesn't mean I don't deserve the XA10.


I made sure the aperature and shutter speeds are set appropriately, is there anything else I should be doing?


The reason why I made this thread (please read my first post) wasn't because I wanted to know the difference. It was because everywhere I read it was claimed the 60i and PF30 are identical where in reality, to me, they were very different.

 

[Icyman]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann /forum/post/20852992


Don't blend then. Use single field. You will lose resolution, but it is usually fine for online viewing: http://www.avchduser.com/articles/wa...aced_video.jsp


Here is why 60p is superior: you get 60 full 1080-line frames every second, you can convert it to 60i and you can convert to 30p without losing resolution. Oh well, maybe Canon will catch up next year.

Your throwing away half the image! That's why 30p is just simply easier and cleaner to use. All the options have pro's and con's. no one size fits all solutions here.


While I do like the 60p, especially when recording my daughter pole vaulting, it does have its drawbacks. Wouldn't [email protected] give more data per frame than [email protected], unless there is a new math I don't know about. That's definitely not superior, just different. Wouldn't 48mbps be a PIA to handle for the average user. For me the low light is more important. But yes, how I wish canon had included [email protected] I just couldn't justify $3k for the XF100. But I'm glad you're happy with your panny. good stuff.


ok, ok, let's stay with the topic at hand.

 

[Ungermann]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Icyman /forum/post/20853118


Actually, My point is that Progressive is the future. His camera doesn't offer 60p. Besides since the internet standard is 30p and Bluray is 60i, I don't see your point. Future for what? broadcast/media? you're making too many assumptions. 60p could be the betamax of video, better but not market penetrated. you never know. No one is using it much so I don't agree and I'm not talking about a guy and a camcorder.

60p is used by ABC and Fox, although in 720p form. Same with BD. So at very least 1080p60 can be converted to 720p60 and it will still look great. With proliferation of BD players 720p60 will hopefully become the format of choice. Maybe 1080p60 will be accepted in broadcast in 5 or 10 years.


People are switching to online viewing, but currently online cannot offer 60p, even at measly 480-line frame size. Here where broadcast may try to step up to get their viewers back by offering 1080p60 AVC-based broadcast format. This format was added to ATSC in 2009. I would prefer 1080p60 to 3D any day.


1080i30 can be converted to 720p60 too, and it will look very decent. But 30p is only 30 samples per second. It is ok for the Web simply because YouTube cannot pump 60fps through, but it will. YouTube already uses VFR, so gradual increase of average frame rate is inevitable.


30p is not used by "filmmakers", who think that 24fps is the only "real" rate. So it is a sort of no-man's land, a temporary format until the Web and broadcast catches up with proper 60p.


30i (or 60i in another notation) has 60 samples per second and can be converted to watchable 720p60. This format is better for those who do not crave 24p judder but rather prefer fluid motion.

 

[Icyman]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20853234


You guys are making this way more complicated.


- I read everything there is to read on this, I know what interlaced means, heck I spent 10 years with DirectX APIs, polygons, rendering, and so on. I m not an idiot. Please stop telling me what google already is.


- I don't and will not use a camcorder for stills. My dslr is always with me.


- I am telling you what I "see" with my eyes, 30p looks like crap on my TV. I have XBMC and my PC connects to my LCDTV with a HDMI cable. I tranfer videos to my PC, upload them and at the same time watch them myself on XBMC.


- I bought XA10 because of its low light capabilities, its new technology of less megapixels for better low light handling, infrared, better audio. Its the same reason why people buy a BMW M3 or Mercedes AMG. While those cars are made for are a race track, 90% of the people driving them never track them. Its the sound of thr V8, super handling, suspension, and looks that makes the car attractive. Just because I don't spend 2 hours editing videos doesn't mean I don't deserve the XA10.


I made sure the aperature and shutter speeds are set appropriately, is there anything else I should be doing?


The reason why I made this thread (please read my first post) wasn't because I wanted to know the difference. It was because everywhere I read it was claimed the 60i and PF30 are identical where in reality, to me, they were very different.

Yes. They are different. Enjoy!

 

[Ungermann]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20853234


The reason why I made this thread (please read my first post) wasn't because I wanted to know the difference. It was because everywhere I read it was claimed the 60i and PF30 are identical where in reality, to me, they were very different.

They ARE different. I provided you with a link, which describes what PF30 is (it is, effectively, 30PsF). If you are not an idiot as you say, you could probably separate crap that you've been reading "everywhere" from true information.

 

[Ungermann]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Icyman /forum/post/20853243


Your throwing away half the image! That's why 30p is just simply easier and cleaner to use.

Sure, if 30p is all you want then shooting in 30p is best. But 30i gives you an option of having both 30p and 60p, or you can slow it down to half the speed very cleanly. 60p gives you an option of having 30p without losing resolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icyman /forum/post/20853243


While I do like the 60p, especially when recording my daughter pole vaulting, it does have its drawbacks. Wouldn't [email protected] give more data per frame than [email protected], unless there is a new math I don't know about. That's definitely not superior, just different. Wouldn't 48mbps be a PIA to handle for the average user. For me the low light is more important. But yes, how I wish canon had included [email protected]

Yeah, 720p60 would be perfect considering current bitrates. I do see occasional macroblocking when shooting with the SD600 in 1080p60 mode.

 

[kucharsk]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Icyman /forum/post/20852622


The main reason to use 60i is to burn to Bluray or AVCHD DVD. But bluray is truely obsolete. Much like the CD. If your choice to record audio was WAV(60i) or MP3(30p), which would you choose?

On what planet is Blu-ray obsolete? Or CD, in most cases?


Blu-ray still provides the highest quality video for home users.


Except for high-res digital files, and frankly vinyl LPs, CD does the same for audio.


Just my $.02. I'll never understand people who stream video, especially movies. Why take a step back in quality?

 

[Icyman]

Sorry, I meant it as a verb, antiquated. I didn't mean to say it isn't widely used. However, I and many others don't use it. Look at how much the online movie rentals are growing. The trend is taking root. Again, not saying it isn't great quality. It's just not Internet ready & the Internet is like an infant in its lifecycle. Ease of use is important and not always quality alone. In 10-20 years Bluray will go the way of DVD and then VHS eventually. However, my perspective was as a media format for camcorders not home movies.

It's interesting that you quote CD's. CD technology was invented in 1958. First laser disc demonstration was 1974. Came to market in 1978. The first album to reach market was 1982. So yeah, video was before audio.


YouTube has way more hours of video than all the bluray titles and that's my point. In that regard, YouTube has made Bluray obsolete.


We may not know the exact direction we're going but we're not staying here.

 

[Philip_L]

Hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/0


The reason why I made this thread (please read my first post) wasn't because I wanted to know the difference. It was because everywhere I read it was claimed the 60i and PF30 are identical where in reality, to me, they were very different.

60i can be real interlaced footage which has 60 samples per second = more fluid motion but with a drop in resolution for anything that moves.


60i can also contain 30p, it's just easier sometimes for it to not need special treatment, such as broadcasting it or for Blu-ray, and on your TV it simply becomes 30p again, so yes 60i and 30p may look the same. 60i may also be similar to 30p if de-interlaced to 30p, for example for YouTube.


There was mention that Blu-ray is normally 60i, this isn't quite correct, as the majority of Blu-ray releases contain films and they are at 24 frames per second, the same as at the cinema. If you have a recent HD TV that supports 24Hz (24fps) it will signal to the Blu-ray player it's support and the Blu-ray player will output it at 24fps, i.e. at the real frame rate. If your TV doesn't support 24Hz input, the Blu-ray player does a frame rate conversion and ups it to 60i or 60p to be compatible with your TV.


Regards


Phil

 

[rrd3]


so i was recording a graduation last night,  tried 30 p but looked terrible. 60 I looked great . how will it turn out when I make a dvd for the people wanting a copy?  I shot with this before on 60i on sp 7mbps and everytime I try to make a dvd it looks terrible... all fuzzy.  so I am worried about making a dvd here....Russell

 

[Ungermann]



Quote:
Originally Posted by rrd3  /t/1355259/xa10-60i-vs-pf30-vs-24p#post_24801853


so i was recording a graduation last night,  tried 30 p but looked terrible. 60 I looked great . how will it turn out when I make a dvd for the people wanting a copy?

Since you've already shot your video there is no point asking. Just make a DVD and see for yourself.