AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was not sure which forum in which to ask this question so I thought I would start here. I am considering purchasing a direct view HDTV that I will also use with an Xbox. More Xbox games are being released that support 720p. The Sony KV-34xbr800 supposedly accepts 720p input and converts it to 1080i. Will that work with the XBox? Is that different than native 720p? Does it matter?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
495 Posts
Sonyxbr,


I have my xbox connected to an RCA 38310 HDTV using the component inputs. Unfortunately, this TV does not do 720p natively so any of the current HD games are downconverted to non HD performance (I think 480p). I had originally thought the 720p games would be upconverted to 1080i but unfortunately this doesn't happen.


Paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
195 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Paul,


Thanks for your reply. I wonder if that is a function of the TV. Does your TV upconvert other 720p signals to 1080i? The Sony lit. says a new feature is that it accepts native 720p and converts it to 1080i. I wonder if that is good enough. Its very confusing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
116 Posts
Sonyxbr,


I don't have a 34XBR800 but I have a friend with a Mitsu RPTV that accepts only 480P or 1080i and he's basically screwed. There's only 3 or 4 Xbox games right now that support >480p, and of those, only 1 (Dragon's Lair 3D) supports 1080i. The rest will only support 720p. So even though his set is "HD-capable" he can't play most of the HD-capable Xbox games since most of them don't output 1080i.


I also read that the 34XBR800 will convert a 720p signal to 1080i internally. Might wanna some owners of that set how well it does the conversion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
235 Posts
The Sony 34XBR800 works great with the xbox they really are a prefect match for each other. One extremely convenient thing about the Sony set is that it has auto selecting component inputs. Which, means it automatically detects what type of signal is being sent to it whether it be 480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i. Some, other sets don't do this, which makes it a hassle since you have to go into the TV's menu and tell it each time or unplug and replug the component input into a different one each time on the back of your set.


This is good for the xbox since its start up menu is only displayed in 480i (even if you tell the xbox to output 480p or higher), so you can all ready see the trouble starting if your set can not detect what type of signal it is. However, once you get the HD connection kit for the xbox you will have to turn on what type of signals it can output in the xbox start up menu.


Lastly, the Sony does convert 720p to 1080i, however that does not matter because a converted 720p and native 1080i signal on the Sony will look almost identical. This is because the sets display does not have enough resolution to display 720p or 1080i natively. Go, for the Sony it is fully compatible with all 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i xbox games, however wait for the Sony 34XBR910 which is due out in June. It is suppose to deliver a 60% better picture than the 34XBR800.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
495 Posts
Sonyxbr,


The RCA 38310 upconverts OTA from 720p to 1080i and the DirecTV HD signals from HBO, Showtime and HDNet are all 1080i native (I think).


Paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Why does 720p gotta be so unsupported in the land of the tube?! Gah! :pulls hair out:


I plan on getting an HDTV this summer (probably the XBR910 at this point) for primarily gaming use. (Soul Calibur II on Xbox supports 720p) However, 720p doesnt seem to be right with all the tubes out there. It seems the Sony 34XBR800 handels it well in its side conversion (I say side, not up) to 1080i. But 1080i is simply not as good as true 720p (especially for gaming). Now, I havent really seen an Xbox connected to a 34XBR with a 720p game being converted, so I cant really say for sure. But I just have this interlacing nightmare! On my old 27 inch Sony, one can see some interlacing issues already as an image scrolls down the screen (there goes 1/2 the detail). I imagine the same is true even at HD resolutions of 1080i. However, by the numbers, you wont lose 1/2 the detail. You would go from 720 distinguishable lines to 540... which probably isnt as bad as 480 to 240. I spoke with a few hardcore Soul Calibur fans who have it on Xbox with a 1080i HDTV, and most switch it to 480p mode because the quality remains consistant in high motion, and you get the Widescreen option (which is SCII unique, most Xbox 720p games work in widescreen). For the most part, the 1080i conversion will probably yeild a sharper picture than 480p will. But in motion (especially slower motion thats vertical), I think its a mixed bag.


Anyway, as a gamer, cant go plasma (burn in), cant go LCD (damn slow response times), cant go RPTV or DLP (not quite enough space), and a tube cant give you 720p. If only the upcoming XBR910 did true 720p... Its funny, never thought Id end up waiting for a TV to catch up to the game console.


-DeathCom
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
235 Posts
DeathCom, the 34XBR910 will still up-convert 720p to 1080i. However, it will have a larger cross resolution and a smaller dot pitch so it's closer to a native 720p display than the current 34XBR800 is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,393 Posts
It is hard to believe how misinformed people are about tube TVs not supporting 720p natively. There are indeed large TVs out there that do support 720p natively and they are also computer monitors.



Monivision, Princeton Graphics, and CTX monitors supports 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i natively. wegafan just bought himself a Monivision DM7752ST (36" viewable) that supports 1280x720 natively and he has just hooked up his X-Box to the Monivision and is happily playing his X-Box games on 720p resolution NATIVELY. If you hook up a HTPC to the monitor, you can get 640x480, 1024x768, and 1280x720 resolutions.


If native 720p support means a lot to you and you also want to explore the HTPC angle, you should check out the computer brands I just mentioned earlier.


Spread the word. . there are indeed 720p CRT displays out there!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Tube TVs dont support 720p. Tube monitors do.


Ive considered going the monitor route as well, though it was easilly dismissed because of them primarilly being 4:3. And secondly, very bubble oriented, as in not flat like any Vega, Plasma, LCD, or RPTV. However, taking a look at some of the new 16:9 flat Monivisions is making me reconsider...


The problem is, I dont think I know a place anywhere that sells these. Id want to see for myself the results the vision box has on DVDs and how well in general the monitor displays standard NTSC through its S-video ins. In my experience, Monitors work great with PC stuff, and are technically ideal for PC like consoles (Xbox, Gamecube, & Dreamcast). But when it comes to broadcast NTSC TV (and even PlayStation 2 with its rather odd video output)... they tend to have all sorts of incorrect gamma and color saturation. And resolution? It appears the 1024x768 PC standard format isnt up to the task of 720p either, considering 720p is 1280x720. And who knows the results of 1080i being that its 1920x1080i? I dont know how close the XBR910 will come to either of those formats as well...


-DeathCom
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,393 Posts
Deathcom,


The 16:9 flat Monivisions and pretty much all Monivisions support 1280x720 natively. So you should not have a problem getting the desired resolution.


Regarding the NTSC TV quality, I watch the TV via my HTPC's TV tuner card which cleans up the TV signal and you can view the TV signal at 1024x768 resolution via the video card. So you do not need to use the Vision Box's TV tuner. . you can use your HTPC's TV tuner if you wish. In addition, there are a LOT of aftermarket input/TV tuner boxes out there like Viewsonic's NextVision line of boxes with TV tuner, component inputs, S-video inputs, etc.


I think tube monitors are far more flexible and versatile than tube TVs since you can pretty much do anything with them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Are you sure about the 1280x720p support? Every site that sells these says the monitor is 1024x768 XGA native. Didnt think XGA auto translates to WXGA. If it does do the full 720p support, I think I may be sold... just gotta find one local (going to be difficult)


As for your suggestion of using the All In Wonder to do the TV tunning. Thats my primary reason why I never thought monitors work for NTSC. I too have an ATI AIW card, running my 19 inch Sony monitor. The signal the AIW card records isnt very good. If you use the deinterlacing, you get a 30fps image that isnt as smooth as the original. If you dont de interlace, you can see the lines as you can with live TV running through the card, plus its not as smooth. Live TV isnt *that* annoying, but still troublesome. If you record at 640x240 at 59.94fps, you get the smoothness, but lose some of the clairity. Ive used my PCVCR for about a year now recording basic cable shows (it seems more relyable than my SVHS deck). Anyway, even with live TV, the AIW seems to blurr the image much more so than it appears on my old 27 inch Sony. Course, I use S-video connections for everything.


However, component video is my primary concern. Sadly, there is only like one or two PC cards that will even take component (who knows if they have all the nice display options the AIW has). So, the quality of the signal is going to be determined by the vision box in many ways for me. So I have a few questions. When the vision box gets a 1080i signal, doesnt it try and deinterlace it to 720 or 768p? Does the monitor have the ability to switch to an interlace mode and draw the 540 lines at 60 fields per second? They say the Monivision supports all HDTV formats, but say little about which it does by switching and which it does cause the vision box scaled it to fit. Native 720p is very important for gaming, with PS3 and Xbox Next it will be the format of choice. But being able to watch old NTSC with at least the quality I do now is important as well. Thats where Sony's XBRs excell, they make crap NTSC actually look decent.


One other little thing. Though watching a DVD on the PC is scaled to whatever desktop resolution you have, the image is still 720x480. Just as full scene AA tends to blur games like Unreal Tournament, DVDs get the same treatment. Matching the resolution of the media in the most native possible way is usually best I find.


-DeathCom
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,393 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by DeathCom
Are you sure about the 1280x720p support? Every site that sells these says the monitor is 1024x768 XGA native. Didnt think XGA auto translates to WXGA. If it does do the full 720p support, I think I may be sold... just gotta find one local (going to be difficult)
I don't know why Monivision doesn't include the 1280x720 resolution in the documentation on the website but I guarantee that the Monivision will support 1280x720 @ 60 hz resolution NATIVELY. In fact, I just watched "Maid in Manhattan" widescreen DVD at 1280x720 resolution last night.


I also saw the Windows Media 9 demo trailer of the "Step into Liquid" film. The trailer was encoded in 720p resolution and I watched it at 1280x720p resolution on my 4:3 38" Monivision (black bars at top and bottom due to vertical squeeze, of course). The film blew me away because it was so close to HDTV resolution (in fact, it was encoded originally from the uncompressed 1080p master copy). I heard that a movie studio is going to release the "T2: Exterme" DVD version. It comes with 2 DVDs including the regular 720x480 DVD and a Windows Media 9-based DVD encoded in at LEAST 1280x720 and may go as high as 1600x900 at DVD bitrates. There is a large thread on this at the AVS HTPC forum.


If your video card supports 1280x720 @ 60 hz, then you will definitely get to see that resolution on your Monivision natively, guaranteed.


I think another Monivision owner claimed that he could get 1920x1080 resolution on his Monivision as well although I could not get my Monivision to display this resolution yet. I have asked him how he did it and am awaiting a reply from him. But at the very minimum, you should get native 1280x720 on your Monivision.


Quote:


As for your suggestion of using the All In Wonder to do the TV tunning. Thats my primary reason why I never thought monitors work for NTSC. I too have an ATI AIW card, running my 19 inch Sony monitor. The signal the AIW card records isnt very good. If you use the deinterlacing, you get a 30fps image that isnt as smooth as the original. If you dont de interlace, you can see the lines as you can with live TV running through the card, plus its not as smooth. Live TV isnt *that* annoying, but still troublesome. If you record at 640x240 at 59.94fps, you get the smoothness, but lose some of the clairity. Ive used my PCVCR for about a year now recording basic cable shows (it seems more relyable than my SVHS deck). Anyway, even with live TV, the AIW seems to blurr the image much more so than it appears on my old 27 inch Sony. Course, I use S-video connections for everything.
I don't know which AIW card you have but mine is a Radeon 8500 AIW and I find the TV picture to be extremely clear and sharp. In fact, the latest ATI MultiMedia center software (MMC) has a feature called VideoSoap that allows you to fiddle around with the TV picture quality to remove artifacts, etc. Perhaps you should get the latest Catalyst drivers and MMC software and I think you will be quite impressed with the picture quality of the TV on your computer monitor. Or you could upgrade your AIW card?

Quote:


However, component video is my primary concern. Sadly, there is only like one or two PC cards that will even take component (who knows if they have all the nice display options the AIW has). So, the quality of the signal is going to be determined by the vision box in many ways for me. So I have a few questions. When the vision box gets a 1080i signal, doesnt it try and deinterlace it to 720 or 768p? Does the monitor have the ability to switch to an interlace mode and draw the 540 lines at 60 fields per second? They say the Monivision supports all HDTV formats, but say little about which it does by switching and which it does cause the vision box scaled it to fit. Native 720p is very important for gaming, with PS3 and Xbox Next it will be the format of choice. But being able to watch old NTSC with at least the quality I do now is important as well. Thats where Sony's XBRs excell, they make crap NTSC actually look decent.
My understanding is that Monivision also supports 1080i natively so there won't be any downconverting or upconverting. If you send it 1080i, it will display 1080i. If you send it 720p, it will display 720p. No two ways about it. No ********. The Vision Box is simply a device that allows you to hook non-VGA inputs to the Monivision. I don't think it really does anything more than that, except for TV tuning on the coaxial input.


wegafan just bought himself a Monivision DM7752ST so that he could get 720p resolution for his X-Box gameplaying as well as for DVD playback. Last time I heard from him, he was pretty happy with it. You could PM him about his experience.


There is too much hype associated with the Sony XBRs. A very decent internal TV tuner card and a good video card can put the XBR to shame if they are utilized properly. There is so much computer-based PVR software and hardware out there that I'm sure you'll find a combo that will give you a much better TV picture than the XBR. Check out the AVS HTPC forum to see what I mean.

Quote:


One other little thing. Though watching a DVD on the PC is scaled to whatever desktop resolution you have, the image is still 720x480. Just as full scene AA tends to blur games like Unreal Tournament, DVDs get the same treatment. Matching the resolution of the media in the most native possible way is usually best I find.

-DeathCom
Actually, if you have the right combination of DVD codecs and DVD software player, the scaled resolution will be far superior to that of the native 720x480. I heard that the combination of the ZoomPlayer and the Sonic DVD codecs will produce a much sharper and better picture than native 720x480. If you remain skeptical, just go to the AVS HTPC forum and check out the picture clips of DVD movies at 720x480 and at 1280x720 enhanced resolution on some people's HTPCs. You will definitely notice a big difference.


Now, here's the last word. It is not only about DVD playback. Don't you want to view HD-DVD? But that is going to be years away due to the BLu-Ray technology still being immature. Microsoft is trying to take advantage of the situation by releasing DVDs encoded in far higher resolutions using the WM9 codec. "Step into Liquid" and "T2: Extreme" are just the first examples. And I can tell you that you won't see any stand-alone DVD players capable of playing back WM9 DVDs at 1280x720 resolutions or higher. Only HTPCs can do that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
597 Posts
Yeap, KHarvel is right.


The monitor supports 720p. Also, I use directv through the tuner, or CT1890 and I think the picture is pretty good. It is not HDTV or course, but decent. I haven't even used AVIA yet. Using AVIA is gonna be a adventure, since you have to use it on the computer setup as well as on the component hookups. I think 720p is as high as the computer hookup goes; however, the component hookup allows 1080i.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Quote:
If you record at 640x240 at 59.94fps, you get the smoothness, but lose some of the clairity.
I'm currently running an AIW 7500 with a 17" LCD and am researching transitioning to a HTPC set with a Monivision style monitor.


My understanding is that if one capture at XXX x 240 with NTSC/interlaced signal, then you drop every other frame. To capture both interlaced frames you need to capture at XXX x 480. The problem then becomes how best to display this interlaced output on a monitor during playback. So far I haven't been happy with the results I've obtained trying to deinterlace with various software.


I have used MMC 7.7 for capturing to mpeg2 and Showshifter 2.0 to capture divx.


kharvel, I checked out your HTPC page and wondered what settings you use for capture and playback of analog TV signal so that you don't lose any resolution and don't see any interlacing artifacts on your Monivision monitor. I'm assuming that your AIW is connected to the Monivision via the VGA connector and aren't connecting through the Vision Box.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,393 Posts
sean88,


My HTPC is hooked directly to the Monivision via the VGA connector. I rarely use the VisionBox except when I'm recording a show on the HTPC and want to watch another show on another channel. So I switch to the NTSC VisionBox input and go to the desired channel. Of course, you need to split your cable signal between the HTPC and the VisionBox.


Regarding capture and playback of analog TV signal, I use only the ATI's proprietary *.vcr format to record TV shows. That is because of the closed captioning support in the *.vcr format as I am somewhat hard of hearing. However, I can convert the *.vcr format to the mpeg-2 format using the ATI library and from there, convert to SVCD mpeg format using tools like TMPGenc ( www.doom9.org ).


You might want to post your capture/playback question on the AVS HTPC forum since a lot of people must have explored the same issues in the past.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,393 Posts
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top