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On a TV, color is determined by its "Color Gamut" + "Color Depth" + "Dynamic Range".

A TV's Color Depth determines the total/maximum amount of colors that it can display.

A "Full-Range" 8-bit RGB signal (0-255) refers to the number of color variations (256) that are available in each of the Red, Green, and Blue channels (for a total of 16.78 million possible colors/shades - ranging from Blacker-than-Black to Whiter-than-White).

For a "Limited-Range" 8-bit RGB signal (16-235), a total 10.65 million colors/shades will be available. Note: The human eye can discriminate up to ten million distinct colors.

A 10-bit RGB signal (i.e. Deep Color) has a Full-Range color depth of 0-1023 (1,024 color variations available in each of the Red, Green, and Blue channels for a total of 1.07 billion possible colors/shades).

For a "Limited-Range" 10-bit RGB signal (64-940), a total 674.53 million colors/shades will be available.


Rec.2020 (also known as BT.2020):

Even though it is usually only referenced when talking about Color Space, and compared to the old Rec.709 and DCI P3 color spaces, it actually specifies and defines more than just the Color Space.

Recommendation ITU-R BT.2020-2, which dates back to August 23, 2012 and was revised in October 2015, defines, in addition to color space, various other aspects of Ultra HD TV such as display resolution, frame rate, chroma sub-sampling, and bit depth.

DCI (Digital Cinema Initiative) P3 is the Color Space currently used by the film industry for Digital Cinema.


Richard
I asked the above question because of this post :)
 

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I have one Doubt, the RGB output says In color Space :RGB 16-235 Extended ITU R BT 2020. But shouldn't it be RGB 0-1023 ( Full range RBG 10 Bits) or even RGB 64-940 ( for limited range 10 Bits ??

Because those values 16-235 are for RCG 8 bits right? and UHD HDR movies are 10 bits!

So what im i missing?

Thanks
HD Linker want to say in other words that is a Video/TV Legal range signal (as we know and easier to understand it as 16-235), it's 10bit obviously since it's saying also to the same picture.

All HDR movies has been mastered only for Video/TV Legal levels 64-940, using YCbCr 4:2:0 compression. YCrCr is always only Video Levels, can't be PC levels.

64 is 0 nits
940 is 10.000 nits
 

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Turns out I found what the issue is after researching more and more and testing with another xbox as well. So the xbox one S 4k blu ray player isn't displaying 4k hdr blu rays to the nearest of its fullest potential, and thats by default. A big dissapointment with microsoft as I bought the console specifically for the 4k hdr blu ray playback and this is just something the xbox does. The issue is the chroma subsampling that the xbox one s outputs at. So viewing hdr in its full glory is seen in 4:4:4 chroma subsampling which most, if not all, stand alone 4k blu ray players support. What the xbox does is automatically convert the 24p 4:4:4 signal to a 60p 4:2:0 signal :mad: I'm assuming its because it has to run an entire interface for the system as well but it severely degrades the hdr quality, it almost looks identical to the sdr on the same disc, just slightly better. When you see the hdr from the blu ray playing in the preview window when you press the home button, you can see the hdr in its full glory, how it is supposed to look, but once you go back to full screen, you will notice something like a layer was put on top of the picture or something, and thats actually the conversion to 4:2:0. Seeing as the xbox has the ability to display the 4:4:4 in the preview window, I'm very dissapointed that microsoft hasn't looked into this or tried to change it. Using the xbox one s for the hdr in 4k blu rays is a huge dissapointment, it greatly negates the effect of hdr and to be honest, it pretty much kills the idea of the xbox one s being a primary 4k blu ray player. The netflix hdr has issues on xbox one s, everyone knows that by now, but with the 4k blu ray playback, this is just unacceptable, I feel like Microsoft scammed consumers into buying the system, so dissapointed.
Don't UHD blu-rays use 4:2:0 chroma subsampling anyway? I think that is what the spec calls for. Other players may output 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 but the source is still 4:2:0 so it seems like there wouldn't be much actual difference in PQ. Also my Xbone S definitely outputs at 24 Hz when I'm playing a blu-ray (4K or regular), so no 60p conversion afaik. So blu-ray data is 24p 4:2:0 and the Xbone S outputs 24p 4:2:0, seems ok to me. HDR also looks great to me in full screen.

The apps are another story. Broken HDR on Netflix needs to be fixed.
 

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HD Linker want to say in other words that is a Video/TV Legal range signal (as we know and easier to understand it as 16-235), it's 10bit obviously since it's saying also to the same picture.

All HDR movies has been mastered only for Video/TV Legal levels 64-940.

64 is 0 nits
940 is 10.000 nits
If the discs are mastered at YCbCr 4:2:0 10-bit what is the best setting for the player? YCbCr 4:2:2, YCbCr 4:4:4, RGB (4:4:4)? 10/30pp😡 or 12/36 bits? What happens with standard 1080p Blu-rays and 480p DVDs?
 

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If the discs are mastered at YCbCr 4:2:0 10-bit what is the best setting for the player? YCbCr 4:2:2, YCbCr 4:4:4, RGB (4:4:4)? 10/30pp😡 or 12/36 bits? What happens with standard 1080p Blu-rays and 480p DVDs?
XBOX One S don't have selection of colorspace output like UHD player, It will output RGB Video Levels for UHD movies when they are 24p, and I will check 2night propably what is outputing when you playback the only UHD tittle with 2160p60 (Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk)....I believe it will be YCbCr 4:2:0 since XBOX One S can't do 4:2:2, and 4:4:4 is out of bandwidth limit of HDMI 2.0a spec for 60p.
 

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HD Linker want to say in other words that is a Video/TV Legal range signal (as we know and easier to understand it as 16-235), it's 10bit obviously since it's saying also to the same picture.

All HDR movies has been mastered only for Video/TV Legal levels 64-940, using YCbCr 4:2:0 compression. YCrCr is always only Video Levels, can't be PC levels.

64 is 0 nits
940 is 10.000 nits
Thanks for the explanation. HDR as a long way to go to, as the best professional grading monitor only has 1000 Nits , so the possibilities are still to be found thought the course of the years!! Not even Movies projectors put out 1000 Nits i believe they do 100 Nits. But with the new laser ones i think they could achieve that.

So TVS are the top "dog" in HDR :)
 

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Turns out I found what the issue is after researching more and more and testing with another xbox as well. So the xbox one S 4k blu ray player isn't displaying 4k hdr blu rays to the nearest of its fullest potential, and thats by default. A big dissapointment with microsoft as I bought the console specifically for the 4k hdr blu ray playback and this is just something the xbox does. The issue is the chroma subsampling that the xbox one s outputs at. So viewing hdr in its full glory is seen in 4:4:4 chroma subsampling which most, if not all, stand alone 4k blu ray players support. What the xbox does is automatically convert the 24p 4:4:4 signal to a 60p 4:2:0 signal :mad: I'm assuming its because it has to run an entire interface for the system as well but it severely degrades the hdr quality, it almost looks identical to the sdr on the same disc, just slightly better. When you see the hdr from the blu ray playing in the preview window when you press the home button, you can see the hdr in its full glory, how it is supposed to look, but once you go back to full screen, you will notice something like a layer was put on top of the picture or something, and thats actually the conversion to 4:2:0. Seeing as the xbox has the ability to display the 4:4:4 in the preview window, I'm very dissapointed that microsoft hasn't looked into this or tried to change it. Using the xbox one s for the hdr in 4k blu rays is a huge dissapointment, it greatly negates the effect of hdr and to be honest, it pretty much kills the idea of the xbox one s being a primary 4k blu ray player. The netflix hdr has issues on xbox one s, everyone knows that by now, but with the 4k blu ray playback, this is just unacceptable, I feel like Microsoft scammed consumers into buying the system, so dissapointed.
There is a lot of incorrect info in this post im afraid. For the 4:4:4 part as already stated the HDMI 2.0a/b as the limitation on only outputting 4:2:0 at 60FPS 4k. So the Xbox is doing exactly what she can do. 24p 4k 60fps at 4:2:0. So far so good.

Now the second part that you mention:

"When you see the hdr from the blu ray playing in the preview window when you press the home button, you can see the hdr in its full glory, how it is supposed to look, but once you go back to full screen, you will notice something like a layer was put on top of the picture or something, and thats actually the conversion to 4:2:0.",

Thats completely wrong, what is happening is actually very simple. When you press the home button and see the movie inside the Xbox system window, the colours default to the system color space that is SWG rec 709, but when you put the movie in full screen it switch back to the correct color space for HDR , WCG and rec 2020.

Its very easy to test, just go to your xbox settings and uncheck HDR. Then try the UHD bluray again, and you will see that the colours wont change at all, between the system and full screen. So there is no 4:2:0 conversion. Its only color spaces working out.

I´m not a big fan of HDR because it always looks a bit dim compared to SDR, that's why a lot of people use Dynamic rage at Low or medium to compensate that ( including me)
 

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Turns out I found what the issue is after researching more and more and testing with another xbox as well. So the xbox one S 4k blu ray player isn't displaying 4k hdr blu rays to the nearest of its fullest potential, and thats by default. A big dissapointment with microsoft as I bought the console specifically for the 4k hdr blu ray playback and this is just something the xbox does. The issue is the chroma subsampling that the xbox one s outputs at. So viewing hdr in its full glory is seen in 4:4:4 chroma subsampling which most, if not all, stand alone 4k blu ray players support. What the xbox does is automatically convert the 24p 4:4:4 signal to a 60p 4:2:0 signal :mad: I'm assuming its because it has to run an entire interface for the system as well but it severely degrades the hdr quality, it almost looks identical to the sdr on the same disc, just slightly better. When you see the hdr from the blu ray playing in the preview window when you press the home button, you can see the hdr in its full glory, how it is supposed to look, but once you go back to full screen, you will notice something like a layer was put on top of the picture or something, and thats actually the conversion to 4:2:0. Seeing as the xbox has the ability to display the 4:4:4 in the preview window, I'm very dissapointed that microsoft hasn't looked into this or tried to change it. Using the xbox one s for the hdr in 4k blu rays is a huge dissapointment, it greatly negates the effect of hdr and to be honest, it pretty much kills the idea of the xbox one s being a primary 4k blu ray player. The netflix hdr has issues on xbox one s, everyone knows that by now, but with the 4k blu ray playback, this is just unacceptable, I feel like Microsoft scammed consumers into buying the system, so dissapointed.
Hi, as another user pointed you out, your post contain some inaccurate infos, no problem with that, we are here to correct them :)

UHD 4K Disks are stored to the media using Video TV Legal Levels, 10bit, YCbCr 4:2:0 (compressed), using REC.2020 colorspace and HDR metadata infoframe which determinate the monitor used for mastering details (White Point/Color Primaries/Black/White Level) among with content info (max APL frame and brightness sub-pixel of the whole movie)... XBOX One S has no problem with UHD playback connected with HDR compatible display, it will convert 10bit YCbCr 4:2:0 (of the disk)to 10bit RGB-Video (large bandwidth...restoring the missed chroma info....RGB is uncompressed) for 24p movies. I have verified this for about 50 movies where I was checking their metatada infoframe using HD Linker or HD Integral.

There is one movie which is 60p, the Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk. because 10bit RGB-Video @ 2160p60 is not possible, because it needs larger bandwidth from the one HDMI can accept or receive (or cables are rated), XBOX One S has to output it to 4:2:0 (like the data are stored to the disk also) so your TV or projector will do the chroma sampling to restore the chroma (4:2:0-> 4:4:4) and display it.

Just I haven't verified that specific movie with XBOX One S and HD Fury to report that all are fine, bit I will do it soon.
 

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Don't UHD blu-rays use 4:2:0 chroma subsampling anyway? I think that is what the spec calls for. Other players may output 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 but the source is still 4:2:0 so it seems like there wouldn't be much actual difference in PQ. Also my Xbone S definitely outputs at 24 Hz when I'm playing a blu-ray (4K or regular), so no 60p conversion afaik. So blu-ray data is 24p 4:2:0 and the Xbone S outputs 24p 4:2:0, seems ok to me. HDR also looks great to me in full screen.

The apps are another story. Broken HDR on Netflix needs to be fixed.
Hi, Yes, 1080p Blu-Ray or 2160p UltraHD disk are using 4:2:0 compression for data saving, for example YCbCr 4:2:2 has about the 66% of the 4:4:4 bandwidth while 4:2:0 has about the 50% of the 4:4:4 bandwidth, this compression helps a lot for data savings, to fit the content to disc media (or to broadcast with lower bitrate etc.)

When a player has selection of what color subsampling or colorspace to output, you can check what's combination provides better final results to the display. The device (Player or TV) that has more advanced/accurate conversion, it will display better quality image. There colorspace evaluation patterns for that reason, to check and find what setting is the best for each specific setup compo. There sometimes where a display downgrade the incoming signal for internal processing, so if you send 4:4:4 (from a superior player), it's converting it to 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 for processing and then it's re-convert it to RGB for drive the pixels. So the less conversions you have, the better the final image. So an incorrect output setting can add some additional unwanted conversions.
 

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There is a lot of incorrect info in this post im afraid. For the 4:4:4 part as already stated the HDMI 2.0a/b as the limitation on only outputting 4:2:0 at 60FPS 4k. So the Xbox is doing exactly what she can do. 24p 4k 60fps at 4:2:0. So far so good.
2160p24 from UltraHD Disk is locked to RGB-Video 10bit, you can't change this via XB0X One S output setting. with 2160p60 from UltraHD Disk has to provide YCbCr 4:2:0 only. (but haven't checked with HD Linker or Integral yet).
 

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Thanks for the explanation. HDR as a long way to go to, as the best professional grading monitor only has 1000 Nits , so the possibilities are still to be found thought the course of the years!! Not even Movies projectors put out 1000 Nits i believe they do 100 Nits. But with the new laser ones i think they could achieve that.

So TVS are the top "dog" in HDR :)
Hi, there 3 monitor that current HDR10 movies are being mastered:

Sony BVM-X300 30inch 2160p OLED (1000/1.100nits)
Dolby Pulsar Monitor 42inch 1080p (Direct LED) (4.000nits)
SIM2 HDR47ES4MB 47inch 1080p LED (4.000nits)

From the infoframe metadata I have from 105 UHD Movies:

51 titles mastered @ 4.000nits
42 titles mastered @ 1.000nits
10 titles mastered @ 1.100nits
02 titles doesn't have any metadata.

HDR is specification for consumer display, not for projection, there no specifications for consumer HDR projection playback, we are using workarounds with multipliers and tricks.

There is HDR spec for commercial cinema release of movies from Dolby but the movies mastered specific for 106 nits for that theatrical release only, for playback they are using 2 laser projectors, one for normal content and one for highlights.
 

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There is a lot of incorrect info in this post im afraid. For the 4:4:4 part as already stated the HDMI 2.0a/b as the limitation on only outputting 4:2:0 at 60FPS 4k. So the Xbox is doing exactly what she can do. 24p 4k 60fps at 4:2:0. So far so good.

Now the second part that you mention:

"When you see the hdr from the blu ray playing in the preview window when you press the home button, you can see the hdr in its full glory, how it is supposed to look, but once you go back to full screen, you will notice something like a layer was put on top of the picture or something, and thats actually the conversion to 4:2:0.",

Thats completely wrong, what is happening is actually very simple. When you press the home button and see the movie inside the Xbox system window, the colours default to the system color space that is SWG rec 709, but when you put the movie in full screen it switch back to the correct color space for HDR , WCG and rec 2020.

Its very easy to test, just go to your xbox settings and uncheck HDR. Then try the UHD bluray again, and you will see that the colours wont change at all, between the system and full screen. So there is no 4:2:0 conversion. Its only color spaces working out.

I´m not a big fan of HDR because it always looks a bit dim compared to SDR, that's why a lot of people use Dynamic rage at Low or medium to compensate that ( including me)
I wanted to post sometime soon about what I mentioned previously. All the things you just mentioned are spot on. I apologize to anyone if I caused any confusion or worse, buyers remorse hah. So I actually bought a ubd-k8500 from bestbuy with the return policy in regards to testing the issue i was having. What you said about the preview window showing hdr in an sdr color space is spot on, I read about it in a few different places about what happens with an sdr colorspace with no limitations and its exactly what the xbox does. You will notice on some scenes from the preview that it looks blown out as a result. So HDR is working as it should, no need to worry there. Now, aside from any issues, there is still a difference using the samsung 4k player, albeit a small one. 4k blu rays on the samsung look like they have a bit more contrast, it looks inkier, not sure whats the reason for that, that could be the upsampling of the samsung player to 4:4:4 chroma, because I know the xbox doesn't do that. If I was to give the 4k hdr performances of both the players a rating, the xbox would be an 8.5/10 while the samsung would be a 10/10. The xbox sometimes doesn't go into proper hdr mode sometimes until i restart the blu ray and the quality difference with samsung is negligble, but its still there. At the end of the day, it's not such a difference that I would keep the samsung, I am returning it in favor of using the xbox and saving money instead to be honest. As for sdr vs hdr, I can totally understand the dimmer picture of hdr, but the color and depth of the content just totally blows the sdr versions out of the water for the most part, it's hard not to prefer the hdr version.
 

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One has to remember, HDR is still a moving target? Competition is also another culprit, as manufacturer's try to out do each with improved this, and improved that.
Why I bought what will do me for now, and let things work themselves out by the time I'm ready to purchase again. (2020)
 

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Hi, there 3 monitor that current HDR10 movies are being mastered:

Sony BVM-X300 30inch 2160p OLED (1000/1.100nits)
Dolby Pulsar Monitor 42inch 1080p (Direct LED) (4.000nits)
SIM2 HDR47ES4MB 47inch 1080p LED (4.000nits)

From the infoframe metadata I have from 105 UHD Movies:

51 titles mastered @ 4.000nits
42 titles mastered @ 1.000nits
10 titles mastered @ 1.100nits
02 titles doesn't have any metadata.

HDR is specification for consumer display, not for projection, there no specifications for consumer HDR projection playback, we are using workarounds with multipliers and tricks.

There is HDR spec for commercial cinema release of movies from Dolby but the movies mastered specific for 106 nits for that theatrical release only, for playback they are using 2 laser projectors, one for normal content and one for highlights.
Do you have the capability to test the tone mapping capabilities of a display?

Watched Home Theater Geeks, a few days ago and Scott said tone mapping test showed LG OLED 2016 models were able to resolve detail up to 5000 nits, and 2017 models improved to 8000 nits.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk
 

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If the discs are mastered at YCbCr 4:2:0 10-bit what is the best setting for the player? YCbCr 4:2:2, YCbCr 4:4:4, RGB (4:4:4)? 10/30pp😡 or 12/36 bits? What happens with standard 1080p Blu-rays and 480p DVDs?
So I have the Billy Lynns Long Halftime Walk UHD BD. And it's playing in my XBOne S. The XBOne S is reporting that it's playing at 60fps(59.94) like it should be . Since this is the first UHD BD title at 60fps. And it's in HDR like it's supposed to be. Didn't someone post earlier that the XBOne S wouldn't be able to play this title?
3. Playback 4k at 60fps for the video apps on the Xbox one s?
Something additionally from the data I have posted earlier about the XBOX One S output signal testing here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...lu-ray-player-aug-2016-a-54.html#post50740945

I have checked the only UltraHD HDR movie currently available in market (disc media) which is not 2160p24 (where XBOX One S is outputting 2160p24 HDR Movies with 10bit RGB-Video HDR signal) but 2160p60; the Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk.

I tested that with HD Fury Linker and XBOX One S is outputting it with 2160p60 YCbCr 4:2:0 with HDR, so there zero issue, as other users reported also already (but without examining the signal).

 

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Do you have the capability to test the tone mapping capabilities of a display?

Watched Home Theater Geeks, a few days ago and Scott said tone mapping test showed LG OLED 2016 models were able to resolve detail up to 5000 nits, and 2017 models improved to 8000 nits.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk
There a lot of false information which companies marketing divisions have invented and are talking about each year to promote their products to the people which are not related with calibration, this is the same kind of info.

It doesn't need expert calibration skills to notice this only by looking a post calibration report from an LG @ it's HDR mode or only if you look an HDR pattern for Contrast or color clipping, only look the flashing bars.



5018 nits is digital value 876 which is the 92.69%
6994 nits is digital value 907 which is the 95.77%

HDR is using ST.2084 which is an absolute curve, the display has to follow specific luminance levels per digital level, according to the Dolby's golden reference numbers, so you are following to up to the luminance levels the display is capable and you clip or roll-off (hard/soft)...(it's up to each display internal gamut/tone mapping programming)...the higher from display's peak output levels the display can't follow. (Gray line is the LG, Yellow line is the 0-10.000nits targets)

According to the measurements and PQ curve tracking there is not any roll-off to the 2016 LG OLED models to be able to see up to 5000nits. (1 nits difference is not noticed to this high luminance levels)
 

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Want to say thanks to the people who mentioned the Xbox Insider Program. Totally worked for me.

Finally felt so good to see Dolby True HD pop up on my receiver!
 

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I have checked the only UltraHD HDR movie currently available in market (disc media) which is not 2160p24 (where XBOX One S is outputting 2160p24 HDR Movies with 10bit RGB-Video HDR signal) but 2160p60; the Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk.

I tested that with HD Fury Linker and XBOX One S is outputting it with 2160p60 YCbCr 4:2:0 with HDR, so there zero issue, as other users reported also already (but without examining the signal).
Do you think and HDR movie as a more dim image? Have you tested the xbox player vs a stand alone UHD?
 

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As for sdr vs hdr, I can totally understand the dimmer picture of hdr, but the color and depth of the content just totally blows the sdr versions out of the water for the most part, it's hard not to prefer the hdr version.
Just one article i found about HDR. http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ue55ks8000-201609174362.htm

For me Hdr its very hard to see without dynamic contrast, and some gamma help. I would love to test a stand alone UHD bluray to see if its different from the xbox dim image.
 
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