[Dvoeltz]

Hello all:


I think I 'm doing this correctly but please let me know if my thinking is faulty.


I have recorded a show that is 42 minutes long in XP mode on my hard drive. I have two episodes and want to dub them to a DVD-R and maximize the use of the DVD.


I set up a dublist with these two episodes. If I select XP as the record mode, there is not enough room on the DVD. If I select SP, then I'm wasting about 40 minutes of the DVD. So I though if I selected FR, it would take these two episodes and maximize the bitrate to fill the DVD.


First of all, is this the smart way to do it to maximize picture quality or should I just record in SP mode and then dub three episodes to DVD like I have in the past?


When I tried this, the first episode was dubbed to the DVD but the second episode was not dubbed over. I popped out the DVD and could see it appeared to be about 2/3 full. What did I do wrong? I haven't used FR before to maximize the DVD so maybe I set something up wrong. When I selected FR, it showed 6:00 as time available on the DVD but I thought it would fill the DVD with what the amount of material was placed in the dub list up to 6:00.


Your help is appreciated!

 

[DaveC E100]

What you describe sure sounds right to me? It has been probably 8 months since I used FR mode so my memory is a little foggy. I never did more than one program on a XP to FR dub so maybe that has something to do with the problem although I don't think it should? I had a couple of 70 minute XP segments on my E100 HD that required FR because I want to retain the best quality and I wanted to use the full disc. I think in your case I would just do them at SP because I can't see any improvement on a 70 minute FR over a SP dub.


Dave

 

[JeffWld]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dvoeltz Hello all: should I just record in SP mode and then dub three episodes to DVD like I have in the past?

Bingo! There is no advantage to recording in XP only to wind up re-encoding to SP (wich is what FR will be doing). You are actually getting poorer quality than if you had just recorded at SP in the first place and high speed dubbed the content. Not to mention that your dub will only take 15 minutes instead of 2 hours.

 

[spiderman2k1]

"JeffWld" is right in what he is saying I used to use FR mode when I first for my E80 but now I record in SP and high Speed dub and picture is alot better.

 

[John Alan]

Jeff Wild is correct, as usual.


I record just about everything in FR mode, which is mostly movies. I then high-speed dub to disc. If you're recording on the hdd at one speed (XP) and then dub to disc with anything but a high speed dub, you are sampling and coding the product twice, which will definitely degrade the picture.


Always try to do high speed dubs to maintain picture quality. This mode will need to be selected in the menus BEFORE you record the program to the hdd.

 

[Jeff Goldberg]

If you record in SP to HDD, then dub in SP to DVD-R, what would be the maximum run time you can squeeze onto the DVD-R? Would it be 2 hours? Maybe 2:10, or 2:15?


Jeff

 

[JeffWld]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Goldberg If you record in SP to HDD, then dub in SP to DVD-R, what would be the maximum run time you can squeeze onto the DVD-R? Would it be 2 hours? Maybe 2:10, or 2:15? Jeff

I usually can't push much more than 2:06, although others have been able to hit 2:10. It is somewhat dependent on the content.

 

[alert5]

There is wealth of information and discussion in the forum on this subject. Just do a search on "FR" to see this dialog.


Nonetheless, my curiosty was piqued by the OP's question, so between last night and now, I decided to conduct an experiment with FR recording.


I recorded three FR programs to my E80H HDD:


1. A 1:16 movie stored on my DirecTiVo

2. A 2:00 PBS broadcast via timed recording

3. Another 2:51 movie stored on my DirecTiVo


After editing the three FR programs, I ended up with 1:09, 1:55 and 2:45 length programs ready for high speed dub.


When the 1:09 was through dubbing the DVD-R had 5 minutes XP and 10 minutes SP available recording space.


The 1:55 was left with 2 minutes XP and 5 minutes SP still available.


The 2:45 had 1 minute XP and 3 minutes SP still available for recording to the DVD.


All three DVD-Rs were therefore pretty much completely used and physical examination shows this.


After finalizing these three disks, I found the playback on my main system TV/DVD player to be DVD quality for the 1:09, excellent for the 1:55 and very good to excellent for the 2:45.


The conclusion I draw from this is that FR recording is definitely a valuable option to XP, SP, and LP recording if you are trying to burn to a single DVD-R.


And, if I had originally recorded the 1:16/1:09 at XP it would not have fit on a single disk and the re-encoding to make it fit would have given me SP quality and would have only used about half the disk space.


If I had recorded the 2:00/1:55 at SP the result would probably have been the same on a high speed dub.


If I had recorded the 2:50/2:45 at LP the result would have been pretty poor, using about 2/3 of the disk, as opposed to the quality I'm actually seeing.


I think I'm going to be using FR record mode more often unless the source will match what I need to do high speed dub at XP, SP or LP.

 

[Benfica]

As far as I have read, here and on other forums, with FR usually you get the best possible quality, except (there is always an exception) when you want to put in a DVD just one show that for exemple you will need to record over 2h00 and after removing commercials you will get only 1h30.


You would do a FR recording for 2h00 and the final DVD program length would be 1h30, wich means that you would waste around 25% of the space on that DVD and also that actually you didn't get the best possible quality for that particular recording.


Other recorders, like pioneer or toshiba allows you to select the apropriate lenght (in minutes or bitrate) in order to fill the disc taking in consideration the final length of the show, this means after comercials removal, while the FR mode on panasonic recorders takes in consideration the duration of the recording itself.


I suppose that this is only a real limitation when the comercials times are a big percentage of the total recording time. Otherwise it will not be really a limitation.


Hope that helps.


Best regards

 

[tbill1]

"You would do a FR recording for 2h00 and the final DVD program length would be 1h30, wich means that you would waste around 25% of the space on that DVD and also that actually you didn't get the best possible quality for that particular recording. "


Isn't doing a FR for 2 hours going to give you almost exactly the same quality as SP? Editing it down to 1:30 still is going to give you SP quality -not something better. Under the circumstances, you cannot get better quality and put it all on 1 disk.

 

[Benfica]

True. For FR mode and Panasonic recorders.


Not true for other recorders. That was my point.


Best regards

 

[JeffWld]

Quote:

Originally posted by Benfica Other recorders, like pioneer or toshiba allows you to select the apropriate lenght (in minutes or bitrate) in order to fill the disc taking in consideration the final length of the show

This is something that Panasonic needs to really get on the ball about. The awkward FR mode had its day several years ago. One of the main reasons I enjoy working with Pioneer and Toshiba uints is because of the ability to tweak the bit rate to suit the circumstances AND having that bit rate remain as a user default for subsequent recordings. None of this Panasonic nonsense of resetting it for each subsequent recording while estimating time needed.


Another advantage of user bit rate setting is that available disc space is re-calculated after each recorded segment, which quite often results in more efficient use of all available space. The Panasonic FR system does not recalculate disc space and bars the user from accessing the full amount of recordable space per disc.

 

[Dvoeltz]

So if I understand correctly, I would get a better picture recording 3 42 minutes shows as SP and high speed dubbing them to the DVD-r verses recording 2 42 minutes shows at XP and dubbing them to the DVD-r in FR mode?


This doesn't make sense to me but if I will take the word of those of you who have done tests and confirmed it.


I still haven't been able to dub two 42 minutes XP shows to one DVD-r in FR mode yet. It quits after dubbed the first show. More experimenting this weekend.


Dave in Pierre, SD

 

[JeffWld]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dvoeltz So if I understand correctly, I would get a better picture recording 3 42 minutes shows as SP and high speed dubbing them to the DVD-r verses recording 2 42 minutes shows at XP and dubbing them to the DVD-r in FR mode? This doesn't make sense to me but if I will take the word of those of you who have done tests and confirmed it.

Simple theory:


1. XP>FR changes the bitrate. Your content has to be re-recorded all over again to accomodate this change = re-encoding = quality loss


2. SP recording high-speed dubbed: no re-encoding. = bit-for-bit raw data transfer = digital file transfer = clone of original. Remember high speed dubbing isn't really a "dub". It's a file transfer.

 

[cglenn]

My take is a little different. I think it is most important for the original copy (the one on the HDD, even if copied from a tape) to be of the best quality possible.


In testing (with my 36" Sony), I have found copying to DVD-R, regardless of HS or FR mode, the end result is that the one originally recorded in XP looks as good as (i.e., no discernible difference) or slightly better than the SP copy.


Regardless of my (increasingly problematical) opinion of the Panny 85 HDD firmware, I think their FR method is pretty good. Of course, I don't have any other unit with which to compare, and a larger TV may show differences I cannot see.

 

[alert5]

Dave from Pierre


This is what you should do:


If you want the best possible quality of a one hour show that has been reduced to 42 minutes, record at XP and then high speed dub at XP. That gives you one show per disk. No reencoding involved and these will be 704x480 recordings with the best bitrate possible.


If you are willing to settle for a little loss in quality and maximize DVD-R disk usage, then record three one hour shows at SP. Edit them to 42 minutes each. You should then be able to high speed dub all three to a single DVD-R. Again you will have a disk that is 704x480 quality. Not as good as XP but quite acceptible to most people.


Bottom line is you want to avoid reencoding if at all possible. In my examples you should consider FR for your initial recording if you know an XP or SP recording(s) will not fit a single disk even after editing. You have to decide this in advance.

 

[cglenn]

The FR recording method was a fascinating one to me. I did a comparison test of two shortened shows (1:27) copied from SVHS to the HDD in FR mode as described in a previous (your?) post a month or so ago, then HS'd to DVD-R. Then I XP's the SVHS and copied to DVD at FR.


I couldn't see a difference. It also means, when copying in a 6 hour tape, I'd have to do it hour by hour, and that is impractical with 2000+ of tape to archive.


But also, your method may indeed look better to you. We have different systems in different rooms using different eyes (i.e., I don't feel like arguing => ).

 

[alert5]

Quote:

Originally posted by cglenn The FR recording method was a fascinating one to me. I did a comparison test of two shortened shows (1:27) copied from SVHS to the HDD in FR mode as described in a previous (your?) post a month or so ago, then HS'd to DVD-R. Then I XP's the SVHS and copied to DVD at FR. I couldn't see a difference. It also means, when copying in a 6 hour tape, I'd have to do it hour by hour, and that is impractical with 2000+ of tape to archive. But also, your method may indeed look better to you. We have different systems in different rooms using different eyes (i.e., I don't feel like arguing => ).

Not sure to whom you are addressing your comments, but you prove what folks here have been saying repeatedly. If I read you correctly, you recorded a 1:27 at FR then did a high speed dub. Then you took the same 1:27 and recorded at XP and then reencoded via FR to DVD. I would not expect see any playback quality difference either. What you did just added all that extra time to end up with the same FR encoded DVD the second time around.


As for very high quality 6 hour tapes, I would not use FR at all. I'd just continuously record at XP or SP, then divide into approprite sized segments based on the content. Then I'd high speed dub so as not to exceed about 1:03 for XP and 2:09 for SP.