[psychdoctor]

Does anyone with recent Yamaha A/V receivers who also has XA2 or A2 HD-DVD connected via HDMI for LPCM (multichannel pcm) have any problems with low LFE or subwoofer volume? I am not concerned with analog input problems as I know most receivers except Denon have this problem.

 

[Jacksmyname]



Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoctor /forum/post/0


Does anyone with recent Yamaha A/V receivers who also has XA2 or A2 HD-DVD connected via HDMI for LPCM (multichannel pcm) have any problems with low LFE or subwoofer volume? I am not concerned with analog input problems as I know most receivers except Denon have this problem.

I have the RX-V2700 and the A2 and the XA2. Both players are connected to the receiver via HDMI.

I have zero problems with audio from either player. Bass absolutely rocks.

 

[JOHNnDENVER]

I was wondering what model he has?


I've never seen a report of this on a 2700 or 1700.... It does seem I have read a report of this on the 2600 though before.

 

[psychdoctor]



Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER /forum/post/0


I was wondering what model he has?


I've never seen a report of this on a 2700 or 1700.... It does seem I have read a report of this on the 2600 though before.

I have HTR-6090 which is similar to the RXv 1700. I have yet purchased the XA2/A2 but someone else, Bimmerman has the 2700 and has had problems with LPCM (TrueHD) playing bass in his set-up, and if the Yamahas have LFE problems like the pioneer, I was going to return it for Denon. I also, thought maybe the Toshiba Xa2 or A2 may have been the problem in decoding (LPCM) TrueHD/DD+ with LFE or low volume in general.

 

[JOHNnDENVER]

Conflicting reports are common with AVR functionality these days. 1080p support as well as LPCM support. In knowing that can you really bass anything on them? I mean you almost have to purchase and see for yourself.

 

[MSmith83]

With regards to the LFE issue, you would think that there would be a consensus among owners of the same receiver though. Why do Yamaha owners have such difficulty in determining whether or not the low LFE issue exists?


Anyway, check in the receiver settings for any options that allow a 10db gain for just LFE. If there is such an option, see if it applies to multichannel PCM signals.

 

[drtoronto]

no probs here on the 2700 and a2 and ps3

 

[MSmith83]



Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoctor /forum/post/0


I also, thought maybe the Toshiba Xa2 or A2 may have been the problem in decoding (LPCM) TrueHD/DD+ with LFE or low volume in general.

Well, the volume output of the A2 is much too low if you have it output a 96 kHz signal. If you have it setup this way, then change the SPDIF settings of the A2 to "bitstream" in order to force a 48 kHz HDMI output with proper volume levels across all channels.


I know it doesn't make sense, but Toshiba's engineering prowess was never the best.

 

[psychdoctor]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmith83 /forum/post/0


Well, the volume output of the A2 is much too low if you have it output a 96 kHz signal. If you have it setup this way, then change the SPDIF settings of the A2 to "bitstream" in order to force a 48 kHz HDMI output with proper volume levels across all channels.


I know it doesn't make sense, but Toshiba's engineering prowess was never the best.

Isn't your suggestion going to decrease audio quality of TrueHD and other lossless sound? If what you say is true, then my skeptism of Toshiba and the XA2/A2 are correct, that is, the volume output is low.

 

[MSmith83]



Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoctor /forum/post/0


Isn't your suggestion going to decrease audio quality of TrueHD and other lossless sound? If what you say is true, then my skeptism of Toshiba and the XA2/A2 are correct, that is, the volume output is low.

No. Most, and I'm almost certain all, HD DVD movie tracks are mastered at 48 kHz. There are those who advocate 96 kHz for reducing jitter over an HDMI cable, but that is all theoretical with no significant relevance in my opinion. I personally don't want my audio oversampled by a player, especially when it screws up the signal. Blu-Ray players, or at least the PS3, output 48 kHz audio tracks as 48 kHz, and I feel that this is the correct function of a player. Signal processing and alteration after the decode should be solely handled by the AVR/pre-pro when using HDMI.


EDIT: I should add that it is normal for HD DVD and BD movies to have a volume (for all channels) around 10db lower than when your AVR handles DD/DTS bitstreams from SD DVDs. 96 kHz output from the A2 puts the audio around 10db lower than that.

 

[bimmerguy288]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksmyname /forum/post/0


I have the RX-V2700 and the A2 and the XA2. Both players are connected to the receiver via HDMI.

I have zero problems with audio from either player. Bass absolutely rocks.

Jack, that's interesting. I have RXV 2700, had a XA2 (before I returned) and borrowed a A2 from a friend. Both were connected to the RXV2700 via HDMI, both iad the weak audio and weak bass proplem when playing HD DVDs. Lucky you.

 

[bimmerguy288]

I got an e-mail from Yamaha today, as expected, they said the low LFE was the player's problem, not their receivers.


Don't expect a FW update from Yamaha.

 

[psychdoctor]



Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerguy288 /forum/post/0


I got an e-mail from Yamaha today, as expected, they said the low LFE was the player's problem, not their receivers.


Don't expect a FW update from Yamaha.

Interesting. I just talked to a yamaha dealer and a fairly knowledgeable person about products. He surmised that Yamaha does not boost the LFE because they tend to back Blu-ray products. He said that Denon and Pioneer are backing HD-DVD by updating on their end the FW to accommodate Toshiba's inadequate decoding of THD. He believes that Sony is knowledgeable about decoding and that is why PS3 and BR opticals have no problem sounding good over MPCM.

 

[MichaelJHuman]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmith83 /forum/post/0


Well, the volume output of the A2 is much too low if you have it output a 96 kHz signal. If you have it setup this way, then change the SPDIF settings of the A2 to "bitstream" in order to force a 48 kHz HDMI output with proper volume levels across all channels.


I know it doesn't make sense, but Toshiba's engineering prowess was never the best.

Changing the output to bitstream somehow outputs 48khz across HDMI? I would be skeptical of that, but I don't own one. You would want to make sure you are getting PCM over HDMI for TrueHD. The Yamaha display should tell you if its receiving PCM.

 

[MSmith83]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/0


Changing the output to bitstream somehow outputs 48khz across HDMI? I would be skeptical of that, but I don't own one. You would want to make sure you are getting PCM over HDMI for TrueHD. The Yamaha display should tell you if its receiving PCM.

It's a well-known problem among A2 users who have HDMI receivers. I have a Pioneer Elite receiver, and changing the SPDIF setting toggles between 96 kHz PCM output and 48 kHz PCM output over HDMI. Unlike the A1, the 96 kHz ouput on this player is unacceptable.


Now of course I should expect PCM output from decoded audio, and nothing in this thread indicated otherwise. Unless you, like some others, are likening all PCM audio to 96 kHz audio, which is incorrect.


Also, just because 96 is a bigger number than 48, doesn't mean 96 kHz output is better for 48 kHz sound tracks.

Anyway, that's just the way it is; bad engineering on an issue that doesn't take rocket science to get right.

 

[MichaelJHuman]

Very interesting, MSmith. I do know that HDMI supports more than one PCM transmission rate.

 

[junior LA]



Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoctor /forum/post/0


Interesting. I just talked to a yamaha dealer and a fairly knowledgeable person about products. He surmised that Yamaha does not boost the LFE because they tend to back Blu-ray products. He said that Denon and Pioneer are backing HD-DVD by updating on their end the FW to accommodate Toshiba's inadequate decoding of THD. He believes that Sony is knowledgeable about decoding and that is why PS3 and BR opticals have no problem sounding good over MPCM.

That seems a bit like wild speculation by this dealer, doesn't it? Why design a limitation like that into a product where the winning format is not yet decided? In the event that BR takes a nosedive, then they would have unnecessarily gambled and lost. The simple answer may be that there is no such LFE problem on the 2700. I think that only one person on the 1700/2700 thread has measured it and his measurements determined that there wasn't an LFE problem.

 

[MSmith83]



Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoctor /forum/post/0


Interesting. I just talked to a yamaha dealer and a fairly knowledgeable person about products. He surmised that Yamaha does not boost the LFE because they tend to back Blu-ray products. He said that Denon and Pioneer are backing HD-DVD by updating on their end the FW to accommodate Toshiba's inadequate decoding of THD. He believes that Sony is knowledgeable about decoding and that is why PS3 and BR opticals have no problem sounding good over MPCM.

I missed this post.


That dealer doesn't know what he's talking about. In fact, he is talking straight from his ass. The LFE problem is on the receiver side, and receivers with this problem do not properly handle LFE from Blu-Ray players as well. My PS3 behaves exactly like my A2 in this regard.


On these problematic receivers, like my Pioneer, LFE is low no matter what the A2 or PS3 is decoding. This doesn't just apply to TrueHD, but to all other codecs as well.

 

[bimmerguy288]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmith83 /forum/post/0



The LFE problem is on the receiver side, and receivers with this problem do not properly handle LFE from Blu-Ray players as well. My PS3 behaves exactly like my A2 in this regard.


On these problematic receivers, like my Pioneer, LFE is low no matter what the A2 or PS3 is decoding. This doesn't just apply to TrueHD, but to all other codecs as well.

I don't know.


My PS3 has great audio with my 2700, both sd dvd and BR disks.


The Toshiba XA2 that I just returned had great audio with standard DVD, but NOT HD DVD.


The Toshiba A2 I borrowed had the same problem with HD DVD, I didn't try standard DVD on it.


All were connected via HDMI.

 

[MichaelJHuman]

Gene from Audioholics should eventually have a review of the 2700. His answer on this question should be definitive (I hope.)