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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys,

as i am sure you are all aware, SGHT and HOME THEATER magazines recently reviewed the three projectors mentioned above and here is basically what they had to say:

YAMAHA DPX-1: DVI input, automatically detects a DVD aspect ratio and changes its format accordingly, excellent comb-filter, very accurate color decoder, excellent built-in video processor/3:2 pulldown, excellent picture for DVD/NTSC/HD material, surprisingly dark black-level, 10 foot lamberts light output on 8-foot wide Stewart greyhawk screen, very quiet fan, falls short on absolute colorimetry, nearly able to verify the 900.1 contrast ratio, peak white level of 16 foot lamberts on a 7-foot wide 1.3 gain screen, no pixel structure viewable at a distance of 12 feet, sharp/crisp images, replacement ligh bulbs rated for 1.000 hours with a cost of $600, very noticeable "rainbows".

SELECO HT 200M: no DVI input, blacks close to true black, image looks better when slightly defocused, quiet fan, some light leakage from the exhaust opening, marginally acceptable/poor scaler, poor comb filter, peak white level of 7 foot lamberts on a 7-foot wide 1.3 gain screen, measured contrast of almost 600.1, hardly noticeable "rainbows", replacement light bulb rated for 6.000 hours with a cost of $650, best color fidelity yet seen on a DLP.

SELECO HT 250: no DVI input, poor comb filter, poor scaler/ no 3:2 pulldown recognition, accurate color decoder, high quality optics, better color saturation and image detail than YAMAHA, light output of 8 foot lamberts on 8-foot wide Stewart Greyhawk screen, recommended that it should be connected to a Faroudja scaler.

after reading these reviews i could only think of one thing: i am going to wait to purchase one as long as it takes untill DLP's technology is fully perfected, and i may even have to bypass the new SHARP DLP due to the upcoming new improvements, "SCR" with the "ARCHIMEDES" color wheel and the 12-degree DMD's for enhanced blacks...and, who knows, perhaps replacement light bulbs with a cost of $200 or less!!! one can always dream, can't one???
 

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I recently posted asking when we would see the first HT projs with the new color wheel and 12 degree tilt DLPs and the shortest estimate was two years. And by then, TI will probably have announced a newer color wheel and DLP, and you can wait another two years for that one.


You can wait forever, or resign yourself to buying a new proj every two years, or buy one and stop reading mags and these forums so you don't know about new developments and start a new cheaper hobby like collecting used Porsches.
 

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MCaugusto quotes: after reading these reviews i could only think of one thing: i am going to wait to purchase one as long as it takes untill DLP's technology is fully perfected, and i may even have to bypass the new SHARP DLP due to the upcoming new improvements, "SCR" with the "ARCHIMEDES" color wheel and the 12-degree DMD's for enhanced blacks...and, who knows, perhaps replacement light bulbs with a cost of $200 or less!!! one can always dream,

can't one???



Reply: With your reasoning you'll be forever dreaming of the Holy Grail. From reading this forum you should have learned by now that you can't soley go by any one person's reviews--especially magazine writers who have their own agendas to contend with. The simple fact is that you would probably be tickled to death with either of the three machines in question if you set them up properly. And face the fact that there will ALWAYS be something new coming down the pike.


If you came to my house and viewed my HT200DM playing a DVD from my Panasonic RP91, you'd be awe struck to say the least and, if your wallet approved, you'd run out today to buy a similar system.


Take a look around, don't you see how short life can be? And I'm not referring to light bulbs. Treat yourself to a projector now and start enjoying yourself, you can always upgrade to newer and better when much greater strides are made.


Cheers,

Peter M




[This message has been edited by videonut (edited 09-21-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hey guys, relax...!!!

when i posted my opinion stating that i would wait untill DLP technology is fully perfected, i thought it was pretty obvious that, as far as we are all aware, it is not quite there yet...

why should anyone want to spend $10.000 to purchase a projector that does not even display the minimum colorimetry as specified by the "HDTV/GRAND ALLIANCE", that does not yet put out "blacks" that approach CRT-projectors that have been around for decades,that shows "rainbows" and "trailing artifacts", equipped with light bulbs that last a whopping 9 months of average use, etc, etc, etc....

i imagine that, if you have money "burning" in your pocket... well, lucky you, i wish i could have likewise...!!!

i can afford to be patient and wait another 18 months or so to buy a DLP projector with a picture that will best a CRT's, conform fully to the specifications of HDTV and that, hopefully, will be in use for at least the following 5 years or longer, without any fear of obsolence.

and, by the way, i should be patient, considering the fact that i have been an owner of CRT front-projectors for over 20 years.

as for the SELECO HT 200DM, i am sure that it puts out a magnificent picture for standard NTSC video, which, of course, includes DVD's, but, unfortunately, for $10.000 it uses the 800x600 // 848x480 DMD mirror assembly, which is not quite HIGH DEFINITION by any definition of the word...

and, insofar as reading reviews in magazines, newspapers,forums,etc, i am a firm believer that, the more information one garners from different sources, the more well-informed one becomes!!!...............................

RISE-UP, DEFENDERS OF THE DLP "REALM"!.......just kidding!!
 

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before getting in the spec war, perhaps it would behoove you to actually view the projectors. also, there still isn't a 1980 line projector on the market--another hdtv standard, right? go ahead, wait 18 months...we don't care, but we have been watching movies for that amount of time, and will be ready to upgrade!


i tell you, the DM is a mighty fine machine. svga or not. also, go check out the plasma forum, and see how us Panny guys dig 480p better than any other 42" plasma on the market (some with better resolution)
 

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If you dont have a big screen now, jump in...dont wait too long, you're missing all the fun.


------------------

Jeff

Currently - Zenith 7" CRT, 80x60 1.3 gain screen


Soon to be - 107x60 1.3 gain...with whatever higher rez DLP gets its act together (finally)with Panamorph or B stock/etc 9" CRT
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by MCaugusto:
i can afford to be patient and wait another 18 months or so to buy a DLP projector . . . that, hopefully, will be in use for at least the following 5 years or longer, without any fear of obsolence.
Apart from some worries about the industry's plan to obsolete existing DVI inputs for HDTV by implementing a proprietary compression scheme, I think fears of a current projector somehow becoming "obsolescent" are unfounded.


I've had my Compaq MP1600 DLP for almost two years. It looked great when I got it, and it looks great now. Are there currently available projectors that look a little bit better? I'm sure there are. But what do I care when I already have an image that looks great. I could easily live with this projector for another three years. The picture quality isn't going to deteriorate. How's it going to become "obsolescent" for me?


For people who are worried about waiting for advancements, I'd recommend them buying an NEC LT150 for a little over $2k or a used DLP or LCD of their choice. Then just enjoy it for a couple years until something comes around that's clearly better. And then spend your $5k to $15k if you want.


You'll be able to recover a substantial part of your outlay for your initial projector on eBay, if you want. I'm sure it will happen eventually, but right now I can hardly imagine a projector like the LT150 ever selling for less than $1k on eBay. It's already incredibly cheap for what it does.



[This message has been edited by hsitz (edited 09-22-2001).]
 

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MCaugusto Quotes:

i imagine that, if you have money "burning" in your pocket... well, lucky you, i wish i could have likewise...!!!


First off, luck has nothing to do with it; we all have the same opportunities in this great country.


As far as CRT projectors go, I bought my first one back in the early eighties and upgraded projectors as major improvments came along. So please don't try to profess how the black level looks on my 200DM when you obviously don't have a clue about the machine's performance.


Remember, there are three types of people in this world: The ones who make things happen, the ones that watch things happen, and the ones who wonder what happened.


Ciao,

Peter M
 

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MCaugusto,


Great synopsis...but that 7 ft-L was on the Grayhawk, .95 gain screen.


Good points, though. I think I was clear in my conclusions who should buy the DM. A few of them are the happy defenders of it in this thread. I was very unhappy to see it leave my studio.


I am on the fence as to this Archimides thing, TI is only touting its ability to make even brighter projectors. That would be like telling Cerwin Vega or Klipsch to make louder speakers. IF they said one hint about getting blacks better...I'd be a happy man.


And we should all nag TI constantly about getting us a 1920 x 1080 chip; let them clearly know about your boycotting their 'market driven' approach, and the number of people you usually influence on AV purchases. I have tried, and continually hit a brick wall. With all of your help...it might be different. But, then again, I'm an optimist.


John
 

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John,


Great to see someone from a magazine actively participating!


Did the Seleco 200DM really measure out at 7 ft-Lamberts on a 7' wide screen? Jeez, that means that the rough lumens output it around 300 lumens, a far cry from their 800 lumen spec. Of course Seleco is not the only offender in that category.


Why are you on the fence about the SCR colour wheel? With the exception of removing the clear section, there is not much to be done to a colour wheel to increase contrast. On the other hand the light efficiency of a single chip DLP can be greatly increased by refinements to the colour wheel. I know I want higher output single chip projectors! I don't look at it as telling Klipsch to make louder speaker, I look at it as telling them to make more *efficient* speakers (which they do). Also, TI is trying to improve their contrast ratio, the DM1 chip used in 720P projectors has their DM3 technology from the D-Cinema "black chips" which allowed them to exceed 1000:1. Their 12 degree tilt chips (I believe the 848*480 chip is one of them) are also supposed to improve contrast levels.


I wonder if TI is even capable of making 1920*1080 chips, I have heard that their yields on DMD chips are not that good. I look to JVC more than anyone to provide the next generation of higher resolution chips, although other LCOS chip manufacturers are certainly in the game. After all JVC has already demonstrated projectors exceeding 1920*1080 (far exceeding in the case of the 4k*2k at Siggraph).


BTW, you mentioned in a previous thread that you had access to a Photo Research meter. Do you think SGHT will start publishing xy colour coordinated measurements for projectors? I know some other publications do and I really view it as the next step after colour temperature, especially since it appears to vary so much in digital projectors with "orange" reds from some single chip DLP's.


Regards,


Kam Fung
 

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Kam,


SORRY for the delay here. I had some deadlines, and then was deep in computer HELL for about 10 days.


My complaint about the Archimedes SCR wheel isn't a complaint at all. I just think that the current DLP's are bright, and bright enough. Now...if, with SCR, they use a lower output bulb and save us on electricity costs...or let us use a .75 gain Grayhawk to make the blacks right (I'm speculating on the 'gain' needed for this, just being silly at 3:00 a.m. on the Pacific coast) then I'm a happy guy.


I will tell you what I think about 12 degree tilting DMD's when I get the chance to analyze them. I want black and shadow detail. It makes a HUGE improvement in viewer involvement, at least to this viewer. And, yes, I know that our blacks at home with CRT's are better than in the movie theater. I almost joined in that thread last month, but didn't want to add to the noise. As soon as we have to install bright green EXIT signs in our home theaters, then I'll suffer dark greenish-grays in my personal movie experience.


As for the Photo Research, I can occasionally use either Home Theater's or Joe Kane's here in North Hollywood...but Tom and I have not discussed changes in the published data format yet. I am in the middle of creating a standard measurement procedure for fixed pixel displays...and am also in the process of planning a huge studio back in Detroit where I can do more things than we can afford to accomplish here in California.


If I get the square footage I can afford in Southern Cal in a warehouse space, then the electricity rates will be out of this world ('cuz basically anything outside LA is caught in the 'crisis' these state leaders created with the deregulation debacle). The magazine business, like most in these times, is going to suffer an economic crunch in the near future...and SGHT cannot afford what I want to do. So...I will ramp up my calibrations in the midwest (and nationally, if travel returns to reasonable ease) and invest that money on a studio for my work--in an inner-city loft where I can also live. At that time, I will also acquire a Photo Research or McMahon spectro-radiometer, and we will revisit what data we can squeeze into the mag.


I am also considering publishing additional measurements on our web page, so I won't be affecting the paper page count with my anal-retentiveness...but still deliver the numbers we geeks love to see!!


As for those measurements on the HT 200 DM, they did include the Grayhawk, and I can guarantee you that Seleco didn't pre-load their published specs by taking them on a screen with a gain less than 1!! I tried to show with numbers what I was actually reviewing...not competing with the numbers game.


None of the published figures from any manufacturer have any relation to what we will actually experience with proper contrast and brightness adjustments in our homes...and none of the figures from different manufacturers can be compared with one another. Unless the measurement equipment is identical, and traceable to a standard (like NIST), and calibrated often; and the measurement procedure identical and followed to a 't' by everyone, and the screens identical and matched...we are in outer space when it comes to comparing manufacturers published specs. Sorry if I burst anyone's fantasies here.


Personally, I think a CRT projector on a reasonable sized screen is bright enough for a fatigue-free involving movie experience in the home. A completely black environment is necessary, or course. Now...for television stuff...in a non-black environment...we need the output of fixed pixels.


I'm tired. Goodnight, all.


Sincerely,

John


z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z, thud.
 
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