Yamaha DVD-S1500 NO PLUGE
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Pretty simple really.
In the US, black level setup for NTSC video is 7.5 IRE, not 0 IRE. A DVD player that uses the black level setup of 7.5 IRE, no BTB with this setting, is simply following accepted SMPTE black level setup.
| ...but how can a modern 480p player be made without the ability to pass blacker than black? |
In the US, black level setup for NTSC video is 7.5 IRE, not 0 IRE. A DVD player that uses the black level setup of 7.5 IRE, no BTB with this setting, is simply following accepted SMPTE black level setup.
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Different design philosophy is the most likely reason, or the fact that many of these players are being designed by Japanese engineers and in Japan, they use 0 IRE for black level setup.
Maybe someone like Kris Deering who has more interaction with the people who design these things has a better handle on why these things are done this way. Perhaps you can PM him or he can chime in in this thread.
Maybe someone like Kris Deering who has more interaction with the people who design these things has a better handle on why these things are done this way. Perhaps you can PM him or he can chime in in this thread.
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Cam, did you see this yet?
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-b...h&articles=120
The s1500 did not fare very well in this shootout. Might want to take a look at it as it might explain some things you're seeing.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-b...h&articles=120
The s1500 did not fare very well in this shootout. Might want to take a look at it as it might explain some things you're seeing.
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A DVD player may pass BTB data regardless of which IRE output setting it is in. Whether or not it does so in one of these settings, both, or neither, depends on the specific player and design.
It is desireable to maintain the full range of values encoded on the disc, thus it is desireable to maintain BTB data and peak whites if possible.
There are a number of reasons why it remains useful, even when moving past the era of floating blacks with CRT, etc.
| A DVD player that uses the black level setup of 7.5 IRE, no BTB with this setting, is simply following accepted SMPTE black level setup. |
It is desireable to maintain the full range of values encoded on the disc, thus it is desireable to maintain BTB data and peak whites if possible.
There are a number of reasons why it remains useful, even when moving past the era of floating blacks with CRT, etc.
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This link should help with the 0IRE/7.5IRE/BTB confusion:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...92#post4512692
And this link should answer the "purpose" question:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...45#post4039045
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...92#post4512692
And this link should answer the "purpose" question:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...45#post4039045
Quote:
that's what i thought too. A dvd player may have a 7.5 IRE or 0 IRE could just means it may or may not pass blacker than blacker for both setting. IRE doesn't really matter for passing BTB or WTB. Just because a player have 7.5 IRE that can't be switch to 0 IRE doesn't means it will failed blacker than black ov vice versa....etc...
| Originally posted by ChrisWiggles A DVD player may pass BTB data regardless of which IRE output setting it is in. Whether or not it does so in one of these settings, both, or neither, depends on the specific player and design. |
sorry for my poor english.
What I am trying to say is what Christ Wiggles said. Let me say it this way, a dvd player with 7.5 IRE for black level that doesn't have setup to switch it to 0 IRE for black level could pass the pluge test or blacker than black and whiter than white. It may not passed blacker than black or whiter than white for 7.5 IRE black too.
Same thing could be said about 0 IRE black level. It may pass blacker than black or whiter than white and it mays not pass it.
its mostly depends on its DACs. usually 10 bits Video passes blacker than black if done well. and 54 Mhz gives good video frequency again, if done well and also good SNR or signal to noise ratio.
so, what i am trying to say is just because something said 7.5 IRE black means it will pass blacker than black. it may not. Even if it does pass BTB at 7.5 IRE, who knows if it will pass BTB at 0 IRE black level...
same thing with 0 IRE black, it may or may not pass BTB...
again, mostly depends on DACs. 10 bits 54 Mhz is a good progressive scan dvd player if can take advantage of that bandwidth....
so, specs means nothing if a dvd player have a 12 bits 108 Mhz or higher but later to put a test it to finds out it doesn't pass BTB....
What I am trying to say is what Christ Wiggles said. Let me say it this way, a dvd player with 7.5 IRE for black level that doesn't have setup to switch it to 0 IRE for black level could pass the pluge test or blacker than black and whiter than white. It may not passed blacker than black or whiter than white for 7.5 IRE black too.
Same thing could be said about 0 IRE black level. It may pass blacker than black or whiter than white and it mays not pass it.
its mostly depends on its DACs. usually 10 bits Video passes blacker than black if done well. and 54 Mhz gives good video frequency again, if done well and also good SNR or signal to noise ratio.
so, what i am trying to say is just because something said 7.5 IRE black means it will pass blacker than black. it may not. Even if it does pass BTB at 7.5 IRE, who knows if it will pass BTB at 0 IRE black level...
same thing with 0 IRE black, it may or may not pass BTB...
again, mostly depends on DACs. 10 bits 54 Mhz is a good progressive scan dvd player if can take advantage of that bandwidth....
so, specs means nothing if a dvd player have a 12 bits 108 Mhz or higher but later to put a test it to finds out it doesn't pass BTB....
I was surprised to hear on the Shootout that the Yamaha S-1500 doesn't pass BTB. Early on I tested it out with the THX pattern (I don't have the DVE disc, only AVIA, so I'm not sure where to find BTB patterns) and could see all the black boxes and the THX shadow, which, as I've heard on this forum, is supposed to be BTB. Is the shadow not BTB? If it is, then I can definitely say that my unit passed BTB...
Just to add - a player that passes btb should in theory have more black detail. This is dependent on whether the source material contains btb information.
Comparing my two displays, with one player that does and one player that doesn't it's clear that the player that does has more black detail. You know, pockets on suits, legs under tables, definition in rocks etc.
It's disappointing that the Yammy doesn't
Comparing my two displays, with one player that does and one player that doesn't it's clear that the player that does has more black detail. You know, pockets on suits, legs under tables, definition in rocks etc.
It's disappointing that the Yammy doesn't
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Avia doesn't contain any signals below black (digital level 16) or above white (digital level 235). The MPEG encoder used for the disc clipped both. The newly released Avia Pro does contain and has test patterns for below black and above white.
Both Video Essentials and Digital Video Essentials contain test patterns for below black and above white.
Just be careful if you are using Video Essentials, as there are a few places on the disc that have what appears to be below black material that really isn't. Below black levels on the disc (in these sections) were artificially elevated to show owners of players that didn't pass this information what the actual test patterns should look like. In other words, only use the designated test patterns to calibrate -- other sections on the disc are deliberately incorrect for illustrative purposes only.
Both Video Essentials and Digital Video Essentials contain test patterns for below black and above white.
Just be careful if you are using Video Essentials, as there are a few places on the disc that have what appears to be below black material that really isn't. Below black levels on the disc (in these sections) were artificially elevated to show owners of players that didn't pass this information what the actual test patterns should look like. In other words, only use the designated test patterns to calibrate -- other sections on the disc are deliberately incorrect for illustrative purposes only.
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Not really unless it's calibrated incorrectly. Upon calibration, digital 16(black) should be as dark as your display can go, i.e. black. Data below this is darker than black, thus is not usually visible. There are some subtle exceptions to this that occur with the slightly varying black levels that come along with CRT displays, however most of the time BTB details should not be visible. If they are easily visible, then your black levels are miscalibrated and elevated. In a test pattern with BTB bars, you should not see the BTB bars when correctly calibrated.
Further, I'd just like to restate and emphasize what waterbug said, which is correct.
A DVD player may or may not pass blacker than black values, or peak white, regardless of the setting. Some players may preserve the entire range of digital values in both a 0IRE ouptut setting, and a 7.5IRE setting output. Some players may clip data in one of these settings but not the other. And some players may clip the data in all settings. And some players still may clip even more data than this, or less, or some odd combination of just whites, or just blacks, or whatever. In an ideal playback system, you would maintain the full range of digital values through the playback chain. Joe Kane advocates this.
The only way to know what a player or playback chain is doing to the values and video signals is via testing. Also keep in mind that other things can complicate the issue, like the insertion of scalers and processors, etc, that may be clipping values or performing expansions, even if the player itself preserves all the digital data through it's outputs.
| Just to add - a player that passes btb should in theory have more black detail. This is dependent on whether the source material contains btb information. |
Further, I'd just like to restate and emphasize what waterbug said, which is correct.
A DVD player may or may not pass blacker than black values, or peak white, regardless of the setting. Some players may preserve the entire range of digital values in both a 0IRE ouptut setting, and a 7.5IRE setting output. Some players may clip data in one of these settings but not the other. And some players may clip the data in all settings. And some players still may clip even more data than this, or less, or some odd combination of just whites, or just blacks, or whatever. In an ideal playback system, you would maintain the full range of digital values through the playback chain. Joe Kane advocates this.
The only way to know what a player or playback chain is doing to the values and video signals is via testing. Also keep in mind that other things can complicate the issue, like the insertion of scalers and processors, etc, that may be clipping values or performing expansions, even if the player itself preserves all the digital data through it's outputs.
CamMan - I don't recall a black enhancement feature, though there may have been one. I just did the basic calibrations. Unfortunately, I took the Yamaha back because of some other flaws, so I can't go look at it again, but I remember using the THX Optimizer to calibrate for Star Wars, and I definitely remember seeing the THX logo shadow when adjusting the brightness.
A dealer friend is offering the Yamaha for about $300 right now, so I may pick it up again - at that price point, I can live with some flaws (especially since the 1910 is such a disappointment in the budget DVD player arena). If I do, I'll repost. I should probably get the DVE disc, too (damn but this is an expensive hobby!)...
A dealer friend is offering the Yamaha for about $300 right now, so I may pick it up again - at that price point, I can live with some flaws (especially since the 1910 is such a disappointment in the budget DVD player arena). If I do, I'll repost. I should probably get the DVE disc, too (damn but this is an expensive hobby!)...
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Cam Man: you must totally recalibrate a monitor upon a switch in source devices.
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